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Does Oil Really Take Millions Of Years To Form?


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#61 Sam

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 02:41 AM

Though the pressure is very different, the temps are not. So would you still say that the oil found in the ground took millions of years to form? And on what lab testing would you base this on? When you can actually see that it has been done with similar conditions.

It's not like oil can't form in one day under ideal conditions, it's that the conditions need some time to become ideal conditions. Once enough sediments have accumulated above the layer of organic waste to create the needed pressure, oil might well form in a few hours (or has already formed slowly under the accumulating pressure). Now you can of course explain the oil-forming pressure with the water pressure of the Flood. But then, the Flood consisted of water. As cold water (unless it would be colder than 4°C) sinks to the ground and has no chance of getting warmed by the sunlight there, water bodies usually are thermally layered, with a massive 4°C layer at the ground. Before you could accredit the formation of oil to the Flood, you'd first have to prove that under a pressure of 2000 atm, oil can form even at 4°C.

#62 ikester7579

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 04:54 AM

It's not like oil can't form in one day under ideal conditions, it's that the conditions need some time to become ideal conditions. Once enough sediments have accumulated above the layer of organic waste to create the needed pressure, oil might well form in a few hours (or has already formed slowly under the accumulating pressure). Now you can of course explain the oil-forming pressure with the water pressure of the Flood. But then, the Flood consisted of water. As cold water (unless it would be colder than 4°C) sinks to the ground and has no chance of getting warmed by the sunlight there, water bodies usually are thermally layered, with a massive 4°C layer at the ground. Before you could accredit the formation of oil to the Flood, you'd first have to prove that under a pressure of 2000 atm, oil can form even at 4°C.

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When all the water from the fountains of the deep are brought up. What has to come up with it? Does molten lava ring a bell?

And when the waters from the "windows of heaven" (extra water created for flood), reseded back into the ground. What would happen as the earth's crust expanded to recieve it? More molten lava released.

Then you also have friction of the techtonic plates as the earth's crust contracts, and then expands. So there are several ways that enough heat can be generated.

Besides. I don't see any evolution scientist looking into how this was done. I see no evidence coming from your end, that is actual lab tested evidence disproving it. All I see are debunks grabbed out of thin air.

Would you like to show actual lab tested data disproving all that is posted here. Are shall we debates your thin air debunks which do not hold any water?

So unless you can come up with a more scientific arguement, that is lab tested and confirmed with written data. Peer reviewed, etc... Your wasting my time.

#63 Fred Williams

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Posted 16 January 2007 - 06:51 PM

Sam, how do you explain the C-14 problem? If interested, let me know and I'll start a thread on it.

Fred

#64 Sam

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Posted 17 January 2007 - 07:14 AM

When all the water from the fountains of the deep are brought up. What has to come up with it? Does molten lava ring a bell?

And when the waters from the "windows of heaven" (extra water created for flood), reseded back into the ground. What would happen as the earth's crust expanded to recieve it? More molten lava released.

When molten lava and cold water come together, the lava congeals and becomes volcanic rock. So, if oil is assumed to have been formed on the seaground, heated by volcanic activities, oil deposits should always be found in combination with volcanic rock.

Besides. I don't see any evolution scientist looking into how this was done. I see no evidence coming from your end, that is actual lab tested evidence disproving it. All I see are debunks grabbed out of thin air.

Would you like to show actual lab tested data disproving all that is posted here. Are shall we debates your thin air debunks which do not hold any water?

So unless you can come up with a more scientific arguement, that is lab tested and confirmed with written data. Peer reviewed, etc... Your wasting my time.

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Why, I have no reason to look into how they produce oil from organic waste in one day. I don't doubt that this is possible and I actually think this might be a good way to replace fossil fuel. I only have severe doubts that this rapid formation of oil happens anywhere outside a lab or a factory, because the necessary circumstances (anaerobic conditions, high pressure and the high temperature) don't just spring up and also could not have been produced by a worldwide flood.

@C-14: Well, I don't really know how this method works and what problems it poses. Perhaps I should get some information about it.

#65 Fred Williams

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Posted 17 January 2007 - 05:35 PM

@C-14: Well, I don't really know how this method works and what problems it poses. Perhaps I should get some information about it.

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See my new thread on this in the 'Young Earth vs Old Earth' forum.

Fred

#66 ikester7579

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 02:41 AM

When molten lava and cold water come together, the lava congeals and becomes volcanic rock. So, if oil is assumed to have been formed on the seaground, heated by volcanic activities, oil deposits should always be found in combination with volcanic rock.


Do you know how a diesel engine ignites it's fuel? A diesel engine is what's called a compression ignited engine. It compresses the air from a ratio 14:1 to as high as 25:1. Gasoline engines have 8:1 to as high as 14:1. Compressing air (the diesel engine) to this much compression, makes the air molecules rub against one another and cause enough heat to melt lead. At the precise moment, the diesel fuel is injected, and ignition takes place.

http://auto.howstuff....com/diesel.htm Notice in the flash animation how compressed air affects the measured heat. The more the air is compressed, the hotter it becomes.
http://iemt.git.ualr.....ssed air).htm

Why is this important? Pockets of oil and water are always found with some air (pockets of air trapped). So when air is compressed to 1920 atmospheres (1920:1 compression) during the flood. How hot do you think this compressed air got?

Considering that the air to biomass ratio was probably a 100 to 1, if not more. There was a lot of biomass this heat could be transferred to. So this would keep the temperature at a certain level. Plus the heat also transfers to the surrounding rock, and dirt layers, which would also act as a insulator maintaining the heat. So the heat from the compressed air cooks the biomass into oil in just a matter of hours, or days.

Why, I have no reason to look into how they produce oil from organic waste in one day. I don't doubt that this is possible and I actually think this might be a good way to replace fossil fuel. I only have severe doubts that this rapid formation of oil happens anywhere outside a lab or a factory, because the necessary circumstances (anaerobic conditions, high pressure and the high temperature) don't just spring up and also could not have been produced by a worldwide flood.

@C-14: Well, I don't really know how this method works and what problems it poses. Perhaps I should get some information about it.

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This is because you refuse to research anything that might point in the direction of a Creator. Or a young earth. Your comment here, as to why you won't look in that direction, confirms this because it's your opinion, and not scientific. Or would you like to convince me scientifically (with evidence) that oil could not form rapidly anywhere outside a lab. Or would you rather stick to the unscientific reason as to why you won't look into it?

In fact, who has presented more science to support their view? Would you like to do a comparison as to any data you have presented, compared to the data I have?

Example:
You said that not enough heat could be produced. And only gave the excuse of cold water would not allow it. Your only argument against it.

I gave 3 possibilities so far:
1) Lava released when the fountains of the deep were broken up?
2) Friction from the tectonic plates (earth's crust contracting and expanding).
3) Heat from compressed air.

Your answer still is cold water, and that you don't "think" oil can be formed rapidly out side a lab.

But you did point out one thing while trying to debunk this. You said that if the rapid oil was formed by lava, then every oil deposit would be found close to lava rock. So this eliminates the number one possibility.

I will eliminate one myself. If the heat from tectonic plates moving caused oil to quickly form, then every oil deposit would be found next to these plates. But they are not.

So why would I eliminate one myself? Because I do not ignore evidence, or problems to make what I believe true. I do not use opinions to not look into something I have never looked into. Use of the real scientific method requires that you allow the evidence to guide you, not opinions of what you want to be true.

So now the evidence points to number three as the heat source for quick oil. Could you scientifically debunk this, and explain how air compressed to that compression did not generate heat?


And one more thing. This also explains how the heat (400 f plus, which is the temp of oil when brought up from the ground) stayed in there for 4400 years (since the flood). Any air movement in compressed air causes more heat. So how much air movement was there while this bubbling brew (air movement) was being cooked? Then we have ground shifts, etc... Causing even more movement which translates to more heat as the air molecules rub against one another while compressed.

Unless you would like to explain how oil stayed at 400 degree F for millions of years.

#67 Greyhound

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 04:57 AM

Considering that the air to biomass ratio was probably a 100 to 1, if not more. There was a lot of biomass this heat could be transferred to. So this would keep the temperature at a certain level. Plus the heat also transfers to the surrounding rock, and dirt layers, which would also act as a insulator maintaining the heat. So the heat from the compressed air cooks the biomass into oil in just a matter of hours, or days.

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I thought oil formed anaerobically?

Also, if the world's oil reserves formed in a short time, were would we get the requisite biomass from (potentially there are more than a trillion barrels of oil still in the ground aren't there?)

#68 ikester7579

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 05:17 AM

I thought oil formed anaerobically?

Also, if the world's oil reserves formed in a short time, were would we get the requisite biomass from (potentially there are more than a trillion barrels of oil still in the ground aren't there?)

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When air heated up from being compressed so much, just like a diesel engine. It ignited until all oxygen was burned out.

But this only happened as the bubbling brew produced something ignitable. Which kept the ignition under control which kept it from exploding. More or less, it was a controlled burn.

#69 Greyhound

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 05:34 AM

When air heated up from being compressed so much, just like a diesel engine. It ignited until all oxygen was burned out.


If so you wouldn't expect to find air but rather hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide and nitrogen oxides mainly wouldn't you?

#70 Sam

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 06:08 PM

Pockets of oil and water are always found with some air (pockets of air trapped). So when air is compressed to 1920 atmospheres (1920:1 compression) during the flood. How hot do you think this compressed air got?

What sort of "air"? 80% nitrogen and 20% oxygen? Or rather a mixture of Dihydrogen sulfide, Carbon dioxide and gaseous hydrocarbons (like methane, ethane etc, also known as natural gas)? The latter gas-mix would be the product of the natural degradation of organic matter under anaerobic conditions. When liquid compounds degrade into gases, the gases require more space than the liquid and thus build up pressure.

If, however, as I understand your theory, the oil would have been formed not under the pressure of mile-thick sedimentary rock and the heat of the earth mantle, but under a thin layer of newly accumulated sediments and the pressure of the flood, how should the air have got there in the first place? It must have been there before the formation of the oil because else there would have been no heat and thus no formation. So it must have been trapped during the Flood under the newly formed sediments. How do you assume this happened without the air escaping through the new and not yet fastened sedimentary layer?

Then, the compression heat. Yes, if you compress air so fast it cannot yield its warmth to its surrounding (as happens in motors where the piston compresses the air by means of milliseconds), it can become really hot. If, however, the pressure is built up slowly (as would be the case with the Flood rising for 40 days), the heat can flow to the surrounding sediments that are themselves cooled by the waters of the Flood. There'd never be unusually high temperatures.

Plus the heat also transfers to the surrounding rock, and dirt layers, which would also act as a insulator maintaining the heat. So the heat from the compressed air cooks the biomass into oil in just a matter of hours, or days.

You're right, the heat would diffuse into the surrounding sediments. As they were only recently accumulated by the Flood, they're still filled with water. Water is a good heat conductor and thus would conduct the heat out into the nearly inexhaustible "warmth reservoir" of the Flood waters.

Your comment here, as to why you won't look in that direction, confirms this because it's your opinion, and not scientific. Or would you like to convince me scientifically (with evidence) that oil could not form rapidly anywhere outside a lab. Or would you rather stick to the unscientific reason as to why you won't look into it?

What do you mean by "look into it"? Look into how they produce oil from organic waste in their lab? Why should I? What was told in this thread about that lab seems trustworthy to me, so why should I bother to check if they actually do what they claim to? Most probably they do. Or look into how high pressures and temperatures emerge in a matter of days? I know of no such things happening here and now. You haven't pointed out any such events either, you have only referred to an unique cataclysmic Flood that should be responsible for the quick formation of oil. The Flood, however, is by its very nature not repeatable, because it was not subject to the actual natural laws, but caused by divine intervention and is thus highly speculative until we have additional evidence that leaves the Flood as the only explanation. This is only the case, if we go from the presumption of a young earth and thus can exclude the possibility of oil forming under slowly rising pressure from the sediments above and the heat of the deep.


So now the evidence points to number three as the heat source for quick oil. Could you scientifically debunk this, and explain how air compressed to that compression did not generate heat?

Of course it did generate heat. Only did the compression heat not lead to high temperatures, because it was slowly generated and thus conducted away before it could raise the temperature significantly. As I explained above.

And one more thing. This also explains how the heat (400 f plus, which is the temp of oil when brought up from the ground) stayed in there for 4400 years (since the flood). Any air movement in compressed air causes more heat. So how much air movement was there while this bubbling brew (air movement) was being cooked? Then we have ground shifts, etc... Causing even more movement which translates to more heat as the air molecules rub against one another while compressed.

Unless you would like to explain how oil stayed at 400 degree F for millions of years.

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From the "cold" crust to the molten core there's a temperature gradient: the deeper you go, the hotter it gets. As oil is usually found at high depths, it is surrounded by hot stone and has taken on the heat of the surrounding stone. Oil that is found at shallower depths is thus colder. Or how would you explain that, if all oil was formed 4000 years ago and has retained the heat of formation since then, different oil sources yield oil of different temperature? Do some sources cool faster than others? Why?

#71 ikester7579

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 04:39 AM

Sam, you are not reading my posts correctly and are seeing what you want to see. I'm not reposting to explain what you refuse to see. You have no answer, so you twist my words.

And if you still can't see it, I can't help you.

#72 ikester7579

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 12:07 AM

Also, if the world's oil reserves formed in a short time, were would we get the requisite biomass from (potentially there are more than a trillion barrels of oil still in the ground aren't there?)

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Before the flood, the earth was abundant with plants. When the flood water went back into the ground. It took a lot of the abundant plant life with it. How else did we get areas on this earth that are desert or just barren? How do you explain a desert that butts up to a rain forest? That's like saying icebergs belong in Florida.

So are deserts an example of the survival of the fittest where everything just dies?

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 02:43 AM

Before the flood, the earth was abundant with plants. When the flood water went back into the ground. It took a lot of the abundant plant life with it. How else did we get areas on this earth that are desert or just barren? How do you explain a desert that butts up to a rain forest? That's like saying icebergs belong in Florida.

So are deserts an example of the survival of the fittest where everything just dies?

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Deserts are teeming with life Ikester! Have you never seen a desert after the rain? Even when the desert is dry as a bone there are still all manner of creatures scratching a living from the earth. I saw it on the discovery channel.

#74 Greyhound

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 04:32 AM

How else did we get areas on this earth that are desert or just barren?


Desertification has a number of causes. Overgrazing being the most common.

How do you explain a desert that butts up to a rain forest?


Crikey! Where do you get that?

So are deserts an example of the survival of the fittest where everything just dies?

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Deserts are an example of a place where there is limited nutrient in the soil, so there is limited plant-life, so there is limited herbivorous life, so there is limited carnivorous life. The food chain in action.

#75 ikester7579

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 05:46 AM

Deserts are teeming with life Ikester!  Have you never seen a desert after the rain?  Even when the desert is dry as a bone there are still all manner of creatures scratching a living from the earth.  I saw it on the discovery channel.

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If the life is teeming, then all life should be found there. But that's not what we see.

#76 ikester7579

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 06:07 AM

Desertification has a number of causes.  Overgrazing being the most common.


And overgraving is caused by man taking care of animals, correct? So deserts should not have been around before man. Or is that what we see?

Crikey!  Where do you get that?


Attached File  dirt.jpg   4.05KB   68 downloads
The picture above is desert butting up against a rainforest.

Deserts are an example of a place where there is limited nutrient in the soil, so there is limited plant-life, so there is limited herbivorous life, so there is limited carnivorous life.  The food chain in action.

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True. But how were deserts started? In the evolutionary process, how did we get deserts?

#77 Greyhound

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 06:25 AM

And overgraving is caused by man taking care of animals, correct? So deserts should not have been around before man. Or is that what we see?


I said overgrazing was one cause. There are natural causes too. Climate change is one.

The picture above is desert butting up against a rainforest.


Difficult to tell without the reference but that looks like part of the Amazonian forest where the trees have been cut down by people and the soil, being relatively nutrient poor and prone to soil erosion (and hence the leaching of valuable nutrients), is unable to produce new vegetation. I'm not sure that qualifies as a desert but even if it does, it's easily explained as above.


True. But how were deserts started? In the evolutionary process, how did we get deserts?

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Evolutionary process? I don't think it's much to do with evolution so much as long-term meterology. The (e.g.) Sahara appears to fluctuate between desert and savannah over geological time periods and the resulting climatic differences. At the moment it's just too hot to retain enough water to support a large ecosystem all year round. Then again, as Kega notes, go into the desert after the rain and it comes to life. I was fortunate enough to be in the middle east recently when this exact thing happened. The desert was carpeted in flowers like you've never seen...

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 06:39 AM

If the life is teeming, then all life should be found there. But that's not what we see.

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But you can find life there. They aren't the barren wastelands that the evolutionists make them out to be.

#79 Greyhound

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 06:53 AM

that the evolutionists make them out to be.

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Hang on a cotton pickin'...!

I'm the one saying there's life there and Ikester is saying there isn't! :P

#80 jason777

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 05:48 AM

Heres a new experiment that has produced methane from non-organic hydrocarbons.

ScienceDaily (July 27, 2009) — The oil and gas that fuels our homes and cars started out as living organisms that died, were compressed, and heated under heavy layers of sediments in the Earth's crust. Scientists have debated for years whether some of these hydrocarbons could also have been created deeper in the Earth and formed without organic matter. Now for the first time, scientists have found that ethane and heavier hydrocarbons can be synthesized under the pressure-temperature conditions of the upper mantle —the layer of Earth under the crust and on top of the core.

The research was conducted by scientists at the Carnegie Institution's Geophysical Laboratory, with colleagues from Russia and Sweden, and is published in the July 26, advanced online issue of Nature Geoscience.

Methane (CH4) is the main constituent of natural gas, while ethane (C2H6) is used as a petrochemical feedstock. Both of these hydrocarbons, and others associated with fuel, are called saturated hydrocarbons because they have simple, single bonds and are saturated with hydrogen. Using a diamond anvil cell and a laser heat source, the scientists first subjected methane to pressures exceeding 20 thousand times the atmospheric pressure at sea level and temperatures ranging from 1,300 F° to over 2,240 F°. These conditions mimic those found 40 to 95 miles deep inside the Earth. The methane reacted and formed ethane, propane, butane, molecular hydrogen, and graphite. The scientists then subjected ethane to the same conditions and it produced methane. The transformations suggest heavier hydrocarbons could exist deep down. The reversibility implies that the synthesis of saturated hydrocarbons is thermodynamically controlled and does not require organic matter.


Science Daily




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