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Is Evolution A Religion?


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#181 ikester7579

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 06:36 PM

Now wait – I’m not sure what you mean by:

“do you know how ‘Aryan ideas’ got into Islamic countries?”

I’m not at all aware that “Islamic countries” promote or utilize “Aryan ideas”…. We need to update this to the 20th and 21st centuries I think – Palestinian/Jewish conflicts throughout the last century, up ‘til the present have been primarily driven by territorial disputes, and land rights, and the establishment of Territorial Mandates by the League of Nations, at the end of WWI, and the “Balfour Declaration” by the British government expressing support for “ the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people”….and during WWII there most certainly WAS a rising tidal wave of Jewish immigrants into that region (Palestine) from all over Europe, thanks to the conditions there. Prior to that, these people have been warring for centuries.


Would you like to give a history of where the ape to Jew idea came from that is being taught in Islamic schools? Or does this news paper lie? http://www.telegraph.../25/ixnews.html

You also seem to be implying that the persons Haekel  and Hitler were personally aquainted and in cahoots with one another:

"Ernst Haeckel introduced Hitler to evolution through selling his faked embryo drawings right before Hitler got a hold of Darwin's book.

...sorry, but I sense some real storytelling here. I need to ask just how you yourself determined the exact sequence of these supposed events, and when they occurred. Haeckel died in 1919.


Going around and selling his (Ernst Haeckel) "lie" to the German people, made away for Hitler to do what he did. Hitler admired Darwin so much. He named his book practically after one of the ideas for evolution. Survival of the fittest, Hitler's book was named "My Survival" (translated to English).

So twist it any way you like, history does not lie.

At that time there had already been further publications and work in the field of evolutionary biology - Why did Hitler "get ahold of (just) Darwin's  book"?? Please keep in mind that Hitler was almost purely politically motivated and had, really NO scientific training or experience at all.


So no scientific training gets evolution off the hook? What a joke. That's like saying a killer did not go to killing school to learn how to do it properly, so set him free. By the way, Hitler was doing what Darwin had suggested. He was "exterminating" the salvage race. Both Darwin and Hitler used that word as the means to achieving the evolution goal.

…and that Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini “learned about evolution” as a result of “observing what Hitler was doing to the jews”. - I’d have to say that one can only “learn about evolution” by studying biological sciences, or closely related fields of study. So far you are drawing some rather wacky conclusions here. See my earlier comments concerning the Palestinian Territorial Mandates.


So I repeat what I said earlier: Would you like to give a history of where the ape to Jew idea came from that is being taught in Islamic schools? Or does this news paper lie? http://www.telegraph.../25/ixnews.html


"He took Hitler's final solution as the answer to rid Jews from Palestine. And even went to Germany to learn more and get support from Nazis for his cause."

I am not aware of Palestinians ever conducting an organized “holocaust” against Jews


They did not have time to organize a holocaust against the Jews because of a failed attempt to take over Brittain, Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini, had to flee to Iraq. This is how he ended up meeting with Hitler and the Nazis. While in hiding, he was able to sneak into Germany.

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…So then what you are suggesting here is that the conflict between Palestinians and Jews only commenced, in all of history,  during WWII, and thanks to scientific evolution models???? Far out(!!!), to say the least.


Did I say that, or did you just imply it? Show me where I used the word commenced? Your attempt to twist truth is of an expert quality. But dealing with evolutionists on a daily bases makes one an expert at deciphering it as well.

"And you need to be aware that it was evolution's poster boy "Ernst Haeckel" that introduced Germany to evolution through his faked drawings. And that it was what he did by going all over Germany with this, that prepared Germany to receive Hitler's ideas about death camps etc... "

Haeckel's drawings must have been hugely popular big sellers, throughout the German population, outside of academic circles which is highly doubtful.


Skipping historical facts to make a point, are we? Haeckel travelled all over Germany and taught his idea of evolution using his frauded pictures. This is why Haeckel's university (Jena) had to save face by putting him on trial for fraud. It was not to convict him to go to jail. But to allow him to stand up to his peers, and have a chance to show if he was telling the truth. He was not, and the trial exposed this. Over looking this, in a attempt to twist truth won't help you any here.

Also the "death camps" of  Germany were largely a state secret unknown by the population until nearly the end of the war, and were mostly the suggestion of  Heinrich Himmler and  other advisors to Hitler.


The population knew what was going on in those camps. They also knew they would be thrown in one if they had bucked the system Hitler had set up for exterminating one race.

You seem to be hung-up on creating fantastical historic vilifications, and historic revisionism to prop-up your claims in this area.
Just wondering - what sort of "sentence" did he receive for this?? btw - this would not have been a legitimate legal trial, being conducted by a university, so in a way ,  the "fraud" charge itself would have been fraudulent.  :D

I'll claim to have never seen it, and in fact was taught the concept  of "human embryonic gill slits" was a misnomer . This was in  public school incidentally.


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It was a hearing for the university to save face for what Haeckel did. And your last comment was a joke in poor taste. Then again so is the extermination of 6 million Jews that were considered partly ape. Wonder where that idea arose from?

You need to cite examples of current textbooks to support this.


Do you mean a text book that was printed just today? Proven wrong over 100 years ago does not make a difference if it were printed 10 years ago in a text book. It was a lie then, and it is a lie now. Besides, if I obtained a teaching text book that showed Haeckel's pics, what would that change in your thinking about this subject? Nothing, correct? So no, I'm not going on a time wasting hunt just to be right, just to have it ignored by someone who is not looking for truth.

I found some from 2004 text books. Is that new enough? I'm not going to buy 2006 text books. but the samething is in them.

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Really? This is taken directly from the Jena trial transcripts?? "Having to believe in a creator" was his "only alternative"......Not correcting the drawings to make them more accurate?? Closer peer review of his research??

Once again, I was shown much more up-to-date information in school that what you are claiming.


I left the reference, you can look it up in the transcripts if you like.

Not every school district uses the same books now do they? Unless you would like to twist this truth as well. Have you ever heard of the school board book voting commitee? It's a meeting were you can vote on which books should be used in schools. And because no two teaching books are the exact same. Some books will have Haeckel's ideas, some won't.

Sorry, but this is just cheap rhetorical grandstanding ,and fantastic, cult-of-personality vilifying of ancient whipping boys Haeckel and Darwin. I find it odd that so many others who developed this entire fireld of study are being left out.

- back on topic tho.....I'm still not seeing where evolution is a "religion"??? :huh:

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Creation was a part of science, and therefore so was God. Why else would both of these people make these remarks?

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Side note: The last two quotes I put in italics because I exceeded ten quotes in one post. Forum program does not allow more than 10 quote boxes per post.

#182 Greyhound

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Posted 28 December 2006 - 03:39 AM

I've searched and searched and I can't find any evidence that Haeckel was ever put on trial for fraud.

#183 D R

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Posted 28 December 2006 - 06:16 AM

I've searched and searched and I can't find any evidence that Haeckel was ever put on trial for fraud.

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He was convicted of fraud by his university, not a court of law.

#184 Greyhound

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Posted 28 December 2006 - 06:30 AM

He was convicted of fraud by his university, not a court of law.

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A university can't convict anybody of anything. I'd still like to see some sort of reference.

#185 ikester7579

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Posted 28 December 2006 - 09:10 AM

A university can't convict anybody of anything.  I'd still like to see some sort of reference.

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This is great. Evolutionist-atheist are denying this by omitting it from their websites. I can only find it listed on creationists websites which proves the point I made earlier about with holding information as a form of deception, or lies.

So it never happend eh?

So what's next? Omit the holocaust? There are already several atheist websites saying it never hapened. People believe what they want, and you can believe that Haeckel was never put on trial by his university. Makes no difference to me.

Haeckel was exposed by professor L. Rutimeyer of Basle University. He was charged with fraud by five professors, and ultimately convicted in a university court. During the trial, Haeckel admitted that he had altered his drawings, but sought to defend himself by saying:


I should feel utterly condemned and annihilated by the admission, were it not that hundreds of the best observers and biologists lie under the same charge. The great majority of all morphological, anatomical, histological, and embryological diagrams are not true to nature, but are more or less doctored, schematized and reconstructed (as quoted in Bowden, 1977, p. 128).
Not only did Haeckel misrepresent evidence in his own drawings, but even “went so far as to alter pictures of embryos drawn by others. A professor Arnold Bass charged that Haeckel had made changes in pictures of embryos that he (Bass) had drawn. Haeckel’s reply to these charges was that if he is to be accused of falsifying drawings, many other prominent scientists should be accused of the same thing...” (Davidheiser, 1969, p. 76).

Evolutionist H.H. Newman of the University of Chicago said that Haeckel’s works “did more harm than good to Darwinism” (1932, p. 30). Yet in spite of the fact that Haeckel’s drawings proved to be an embarrassment to the evolutionary establishment, they still are employed in some modern writings as a “proof” of the accuracy of the theory of evolution (e.g., see Asimov, 1981, p. 83). http://www.apologeti...g/articles/1994



#186 Nominal

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Posted 28 December 2006 - 11:24 AM

First off – I REALLY notice your fondness for the word “LIE” – I think there’s a major subconscious slip on your part w/ this…

Would you like to give a history of where the ape to Jew idea came from that is being taught in Islamic schools? Or does this news paper lie? http://www.telegraph.../25/ixnews.html

From the cited article:
"Saudi Arabia has been accused of continuing to foster religious hatred in its schools, despite its repeated assurances since the September 11 attacks that it would rewrite textbooks that refer to Jews as "apes" and Christians as "swine".”

This is in no way shape or form teaching “descent from apes and swine etc” as a fact of biological science, nor does the article even state in what curricula this is being taught. What? - “Political Sloganeering 101”??? Name calling 101???

These Saudi schools are primarily geared toward a what we’d call in this country a “Faith-based education”.

What your citing here has nothing at all to do with biological sciences, earth sciences, evolution etc.

Going around and selling his (Ernst Haeckel) "lie" to the German people, made away for Hitler to do what he did.

Did Hitler ever cite the work of Ernst Haeckel as an influence? Please give a reliable source, preferably Hitler's writings themselves.

Hitler admired Darwin so much. He named his book practically after one of the ideas for evolution. Survival of the fittest, Hitler's book was named "My Survival" (translated to English).

Once again give a direct citiation from the writings of Hitler that he "admired Darwin", ok??
Golly, does that mean anyone wriitng books or articles on economic survival, corporate survival, survival in a competitive environment, is also an "admirer" of Darwin/ Hitler, etc.????

So twist it any way you like, history does not lie.

Versions of perceived "history" can be presented, or even distorted anyway a person likes - including, I'm afraid yourself....and once again your inordinate fondness for the word "LIE" <_<

So no scientific training gets evolution off the hook? What a joke. That's like saying a killer did not go to killing school to learn how to do it properly, so set him free. By the way, Hitler was doing what Darwin had suggested. He was "exterminating" the salvage race. Both Darwin and Hitler used that word as the means to achieving the evolution goal.

uh...."no scientific training gets evolution off the hook..." I never made any such assertion.....But you really need to cite directly from Darwin's work where humans are "commanded" to forcibly exterminate other humans. You won't find it. ..."salvage race"...say what???

Did I say that, or did you just imply it? Show me where I used the word commenced? Your attempt to twist truth is of an expert quality. But dealing with evolutionists on a daily bases makes one an expert at deciphering it as well.

Your confused it seems. Yes, "YOU" seemed to be implying that the entire Palestinian/Jew rift only began, thanks the development of Evolutionary models & Darwin's works. That was the meaning I seemed to get from your own claims. The fact that you did'nt use the word "commence" is of little value.

Skipping historical facts to make a point, are we?

Wow. That's another slip of admission on your own part, I'm afraid. :blink:

Haeckel travelled all over Germany and taught his idea of evolution using his frauded pictures. This is why Haeckel's university (Jena) had to save face by putting him on trial for fraud. It was not to convict him to go to jail. But to allow him to stand up to his peers, and have a chance to show if he was telling the truth. He was not, and the trial exposed this. Over looking this, in a attempt to twist truth won't help you any here.

Accusations that I was "twisting truth" to help myself in this instance are nonsense. Your wording seemed an attempt to portray Haeckel as standing trial for criminal prosecution, & I felt clarification was needed - also, the "trial" resulting in the "only other alternative of believing in a creator" I'm sure, is a fabrication on your part.

The population knew what was going on in those camps. They also knew they would be thrown in one if they had bucked the system Hitler had set up for exterminating one race.

Cite evidence to support this.
...gotta go try more later............................. B)

#187 Nominal

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Posted 28 December 2006 - 11:31 AM

btw - these thumbnail slides are your own creations (oops- bad joke)????

Houston, we have a problem -

They're not working for me off this website, sorry.

....and out-of-context, entertaining slideshow snippets are NOT a good way of portraying an entire work, or position. Much better to read and study larger passages of the whole work in question.

Maybe suggest <links> instead?

#188 HSetterfield

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Posted 28 December 2006 - 12:03 PM

Darwin was Haeckel’s friend, whom Haeckel looked up to, not the other way around:
http://home.uchicago...es/Richards.pdf

While the universities of the nineteenth century were indeed capable of holding academic trials, there is no original evidence that such a trial was held for Haeckel in Jena. It appears to be one of the urban myths which had its birth in the evolution/creation controversies.

However, the fact that Haeckel did, knowingly, ‘alter’ or fake his embryonic woodcuts is known and well-referenced in Jonathan Wells, Icons of Evolution, which I highly recommend.

Nominal is correct in referring to what is going on in the Mideast as “faith-based education.” The Jews used to refer to Gentiles as dogs, but that was also not a reference to evolution!

Darwin’s influence on Hitler is extremely well-documented here:
http://web.csustan.e...wintoHitler.htm
Weikart is an excellent historian.

While Darwin did not command the extermination of ‘inferior’ races, or groups of humans, he did predict and endorse it. This also is well-referenced from his own writings.

"At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world. . . . The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla."
Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to s@x (New York: D. Appleton, 1896), 156.

While Nominal is incorrect in denying the connection between Darwin and Hitler, he is correct is saying the Palestinian/Jew rift is MUCH more ancient that Darwin and the evolutionary ideas. Historically, it dates back to Abraham and his two sons, Ishmael and Isaac, and the historic antagonisms between the nations they fathered.

#189 D R

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Posted 28 December 2006 - 02:07 PM

A university can't convict anybody of anything.  I'd still like to see some sort of reference.

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You either missed (or chose to ignore) the later half of my statement. It was not a court of law.

Universities hold academic tribunals all the time to investigate academic misconduct. These days however, they tend to be against conservitive students who dare to think for themselves and refuse to regurgitate the pablum feed to them.

http://www.thefire.org/

At one time these acadmic tribunals protected the integrity of the academic institution. Today they are little more than kangaroo courts.

#190 D R

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Posted 28 December 2006 - 02:41 PM

This is in no way shape or form teaching “descent from apes and swine etc” as a fact of biological science,  nor does the article even state in what curricula this is being taught. What? -  “Political Sloganeering 101”???  Name calling 101???

These Saudi schools are primarily geared toward a what we’d call in this country a “Faith-based education”.



I’m afraid you appear to be blinded by ethnocentricity -- the tendency to look at the world primarily from the perspective of one's own culture.

( http://en.wikipedia....Ethnocentricity )

Your referrence to these schools as “Faith-Based Education” seems to indicate you see these schools as the Arab equivilent of Catholic Schools or Theological Universities of the West. Nothing could be further from the truth.

http://www.npr.org/t...storyId=5426633

The textbooks "reflect an ideology of hatred against the other, against Christians, Jews other Muslims, for instance, Shiites and the majority Sunni Muslims and all others who do not subscribe to the Wahhabi doctrine," Shea says.

The center's report cites numerous examples. It quotes a fourth-grade text as telling students to "love for the sake of God and to hate for the sake of God." The report says that textbooks instruct students that Christians and Jews are "apes and pigs" and warns students not to "greet," "befriend" or "respect" non-believers.

http://www.teachkids...olchildren.html

In Jordan, children learn that Christians are "infidels" who "must be forced into submission," that the Jewish Torah is "perverted," and that Jews have only "their own evil practices" to blame for the Holocaust.

Syrian schoolbooks exhort students to "holy war," inflaming them with visions of Israelis "perpetrating beastly crimes and horrendous massacres," burying people alive in battle and dancing drunk in Islamic
holy places in Jerusalem.

http://www.overateac...m/ravitch1.html

The textbooks published by Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, and the "Palestinian" [Arab] Authority, however, use negative stereotypes to portray Jews
The Saudi textbooks, analyzed in 2003, expressed hostility and prejudice against not only Jews, but against Christians and the entire West.

http://www.jewishvir...ce/patext1.html

Spend some time on the next site listed below. The author is a renowned expert on the Middle East.

http://www.danielpipes.org/

I could provide dozens more references. If however you are truly open to learning about something which appears to offend your sensibilities, it would not be that hard for you to find the sources for yourself.

#191 ikester7579

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Posted 28 December 2006 - 05:37 PM

You either missed (or chose to ignore) the later half of my statement.  It was not a court of law.


I gave them a dose of their own medicine, I expected their reaction. It can be dished out, but never taken. Besides, I don't really see any real rebuttal of the evidence I have presented. Only an attitude that more or less says: I don't like what you said, but I really can't refute the evidence. But I'll send you on a hunt to find a reference for your's. Even though I give less the 10% of reference for mine.

Funny how I give about 90% references, and they still have a problem. I would take 90% over 10% any day for truth.

I'm closing the thread for several reasons:

1) It's getting out of control.
2) Attitudes are flaring.
3) Evidence is being ignored.
4) One side presents references on just about every issue, and the other side basically does not. But implies their views are correct anyway.

I will leave up the posts because they only got out of hand, but nothing bad was posted. But I do believe the bad stuff was next. And that's the main reason for the closing. I don't like banning members, so I close this before I have to.




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