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JayShel last won the day on April 8 2012

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  1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkQvDsBr3l4
  2. JayShel

    Atheists: Is Murder Acceptable With You?

    Strange, I thought I responded to you already, I must have just thought I did. Bear with me, I have been a bit busy lately. I will type up my response when I can.
  3. JayShel

    Intelligent Selection

    Then I guess I don't get what your challenge to them is.
  4. JayShel

    Intelligent Selection

    Well the software is already written from the start. How it got there is the "mystery". Once the software is in place, they believe that mutations happened in the genome which would cause some positive benefit (the empirical examples they give of this are questionable at best), or at least stick around long enough for other mutations to join it and make it a positive trait. Now natural selection is simply a practical "whoever survives", so I'm afraid balance and mobility would just be a requirement, if you can't move and can't balance, then you can't survive, or at least can't stand upright. This supposedly took millions of years to happen also. So I think the weakness of your argument is that although natural selection has no intelligence, it is said to get rid of impractical designs. It "selects" them out over "millions of years" of trial and error, making the present designs more and more practical. Intelligent selection does have an advantage, for example if each engineer could only make one robot prototype in their lifetime, and pass down what they learned to the next generation of engineer, then we would see a fully functioning bipedal robot in far shorter than millions of years.
  5. JayShel

    Problem Of Evil?

    They had sufficient knowledge because they were told directly by God not to do what they did, or face consequences. Yes in our worldly understanding of suffering, it is the worst thing that can happen to us, but God sees otherwise. Choosing to reject Him will end us up in a place where God's presence is withheld, by our own choosing. We want to be rid of God and so Hell is such a place, as awful as it is. We cannot pretend to know how much suffering is too much suffering to try preventing us from going to hell, and potentially for other reasons. Also, as I stated before, suffering causes empathy, and God uses that empathy to nudge us toward helping each others. I am fully convinced that He is working in the most effective and efficient way possible to eradicate evil, and bring about ultimate good. Non-believers could at least accept that if God exists, He does things beyond our understanding. In your use of the problem of evil to attempt to explain away God, you are using an argument from ignorance; “Christians can't justify all of God's actions with their limited knowledge of Him, therefore He doesn't exist”. It is a fallacious and flimsy argument. So you admit you are putting God on trial here? I am afraid that we are the ones on trial here in this life, not God. In this false analogy, you know all of the circumstances and motives to convict, we however do not when talking about God. Also, when putting someone on trial the defendant is usually present, not just his lawyer. Don't worry, I am sure you will get your chance to stand before God and ask Him all your questions. You must have a very good reason not to use the information on that piece of paper, but can we say that there IS NOT such a good reason? No, that is an argument from ignorance. We cannot imagine what that reason might be, but we don't understand many things about our existence and our universe. Not having infinite knowledge is a big deal. You are an agnostic, which means you claim not to have vital knowledge to make certain decisions regarding belief. I don't have sufficient evidence to throw away belief in God because I suffer. God has suffered with me, actually more than I have, as Jesus Christ, and I trust His motives.
  6. JayShel

    Global Warming Falsified

    Wow really? It's all fear mongering. The result of global warming fear has been over-regulation that stunts the growth of new businesses and plunges the economy in the toilet...
  7. JayShel

    Global Warming Falsified

    Blame Al Gore. He went around preaching it in presentation format. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Inconvenient_Truth Now he looks like Chicken Little. Whoops.
  8. No, since ET without God would require abiogenesis to produce the aliens somewhere long ago and far far away.
  9. Biological evolution is used to support the naturalist philosophy that atheists, and some agnostics hold. Naturalism is a philosophical rejection of supernatural occurrences or beings as an explanation for events, natural laws, etc. As a part of naturalism, you have abiogenesis (a part of chemical evolution) as the start of biological evolution. Theistic evolutionists are not naturalists and do not believe in abiogenesis nor do they reject supernatural beings or occurrences. They believe God used or set in motion a process of evolution. Rich does have a point, that biological evolution is not inextricably linked to abiogenesis, but if you deny abiogenesis, then you automatically become a theistic evolutionist. The problem is then that many major science publications hammer home naturalistic suppositions as explanations for scientific data. Whenever they discuss the beginning of evolution, they invoke abiogenesis. Then you have anti-theists and anti-Creationists such as Dawkins and Stephen Hawking suggesting that science has ruled out, or at least gotten rid of the need to explain things by supernatural occurrences. So as you can see, it is kind of a tangled mess. If someone is a naturalist, then they are open to rebuttals against abiogenesis, plain and simple. Agnostics such as Rich and jonas usually avoid discussing abiogenesis for this very reason.
  10. JayShel

    A Question For The Creationists

    We remove people based on rule violations only, and we usually give people a chance to improve their behavior before booting them. Lying isn't exactly on the list, although insincere arguments are. Instead of banning people who are making false claims, we respond to them with a rebuttal. If they continue to ignore a rebuttal and repeat their false claims without further justification, that would fall under trolling and might warrant a warning/ban. It is under the forum guidelines that if a person has a problem with another member, that they should use the report button. Warning should be left to the forum moderators and admins.
  11. JayShel

    Problem Of Evil?

    This is not contrary to my argument. People can share their experiences with the people in heaven who died in infancy or in utero, so how is this different than God telling Adam and Eve that sin was bad from the start? It goes back to a personal experience with sin, which is their death due to sin. Based on that personal experience they know that they can trust the testimony of others on their personal experiences with sin as well. Without this personal verification of sin, Adam and Eve were free to reject God instructing them about sin, having no way to verify what He was telling them. The Bible does not explain all of the reasoning and motives behind God's actions or inaction, so I can't say with 100% certainty. I admit either my concept is flawed, or I don't have enough insight to completely resolve this conundrum. I reject the assertion that since there is no consensus among Christians on the fine details of the problem of evil, and my understanding of this is limited, that God does not exist. I believe the soul records both conscious and subconscious data. This data is not understood by the baby at the time since their brain is still developing. In the perfected state in heaven, it is understood. so dead babies would have experiences and memories. Yes death is the smallest effect of sin that one can experience, but for whatever reason, each person is exposed to a different amount of sin and suffering, which I believe is for a purpose we do not understand. All sin is evil, not all suffering is sin or evil. All suffering results in some purposeful good at some point.
  12. JayShel

    A Question For The Creationists

    That's right. Egoism was suggested before in another thread as to why people might choose not to murder (but not why we should consider it immoral), and I see egoism as the minimum philosophy anyone can hold barring people with a reduced mental capacity. It is a scarey thought though. If the only thing that influences my actions are repercussions from human laws, then what is stopping me from taking power and changing the human laws in place to allow me to murder?
  13. JayShel

    Problem Of Evil?

    You misconstrued my argument since I said natural disasters are not punishment, but let me amend my argument slightly; not all natural disasters are punishment. The Bible records some natural disasters that were punishments (the flood off the top of my head). When a natural disaster is used as a punishment, it is not due to the original sin, but rather is justice being delivered by the hand of God against sinners. I think I know why you are struggling here. There is a different standard (not a double standard) for God taking a life than human beings taking a life because God gave these people life, and He has the power, authority, and knowledge necessary to judge everyone.
  14. JayShel

    Problem Of Evil?

    Yes they experience sin when they die due to a sin-shattered world, regardless of if they were born. Also, the collective experiential knowledge of sin would factor in despite not quite being good enough to prevent sin in the first place. And who would be the expert on minimum sin necessary? God. The world is terrible, and you want to blame God. I am not surprised because that has been the case since the beginning of humanity. People can't take responsibility for their own bad decisions, they want to blame their creator for allowing them to make their own decisions. Memories and experiences are different from knowledge. People can reject learned knowledge, but they won't soon forget experience and memories. If I tell you that if you touch a hot stove, you will get burned, it is different than you burning your hand on a stove.
  15. JayShel

    Atheists: Is Murder Acceptable With You?

    You sidestepped the question.

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