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the totton linnet

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the totton linnet last won the day on June 27 2019

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About the totton linnet

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  1. the totton linnet

    What I Can Boast About

    * I have not said God ordained sin, He ordains life, to fully discuss that we would have to discuss FEDERAL HEADSHIP which is part and parcel of pedestination, but people can't get their eyes above WHAT THEY SUPPOSE predestination means so it's no good even thinking about discussing it. God is responsible for sin if He gave man free will, that is just the same as if a parent will allow their children to do just exactly as they please. But God forbade the man, that totally negates any supposed free will, and when Adam disobeyed he was STILL subject to God's will. Free will is the deception that Satan used, it is a cruel delusion "you will be like God, knowing good and evil" Well brother you make a fine distinction between predestination and God keeping His word, since His purposes were foretold from the day that Adam first sinned what His plan of salvation would be. I do not take free will out of the bible, it simply is not there, find it predestination is there, God's sovereign will is there election is there but free will is not there. Fred keeps reading into scripture a free will that is not there. just to take Jeremiah and the nations God says if you sin I will punish you, if you do righteousness I will bless you, that has always been God's word to man, but whether they are blessed, that is God's will or whether they are punished THAT is God's will. If the man could come back and say I will sin but I reject Your punishment THAT would be free will. So show me who has ever gotten away with that. Corrie Ten Boom could tell you about forgiveness, she met the cruellest of the Nazi guards after one of her meetings, this guard had beaten Corries sister. He smiled and put his hand out and Corrie's heart froze, all the hate and bitterness welled up. But God said "take his hand I will do the rest" she did take his hand and the love of God poured through her. You will say she "chose" I will say she obeyed. Just look at the stuff you people chuck over me, show me where I have said God programned to sin. That's what YOU read when you see predestination, you make the same mistake Calvin made.
  2. the totton linnet

    Vessels Of Wrath

    * Show me somewhere that I used the word "few" except to say that it is the prevailing view of evangelicals [the vast majority being free willers] I believe on that day God will have the most and only the enemies of God will be on the left hand. Paul rejected God's word but God knocked him off his horse and he became the great apostle of God, you think God is a slave to man's "free will?"
  3. the totton linnet

    Vessels Of Wrath

    I have never said God predestined man to sin, you castigate Calvin for saying it but fall into the same trap that he did. I say God fore-saw that man would sin and predestined who He would choose to be conformed to the image of His Son. And I have argued on other threads on EFT a wider mercy than any I've seen you put forward Fred . I have better hopes than just the wise and prudent folk who "chose to be saved" will find mercy on that day, the holy huddle, the saintly few. You have put alot of stuff in my mouth today that I object to. That's hat people do, you say predestination and it registers Calvin. Well THAT is your narrowmindedness, I say predestination because the bible says predestination. You must really wince when you read Ephesians
  4. the totton linnet

    Vessels Of Wrath

    * That is the exact quote Paul uses, "you will say to me then "why does God still find fault? for who can resist His will?" [apparantly free willers can] But...he says...who are you, a man, to answer back to God Let's get something straight Israel was FORE ORDAINED to fail, they were predestined to reject Christ but that DOES NOT mean they lost their election. You simply fail to see the greatness of God, Romans 11:11 So I ask have they stumbled so as to fall? BY NO MEANS but through their trspass salvation has come to the Gentiles verse 25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits I want you to understand this mystery brethren a hardening has come upon part of Israel until the full number of the Gentiles are brought in and so ALL Israel will be saved. I have seen argued that Paul is talking only about the remnant who will be saved, but it was not upon the remnant that the hardness came was it? it was the Israel that rejected Christ upon who the hardness came. So that YOU could be saved. verse 28 As regards the gospel they are enemies of God FOR YOUR SAKE but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers for the gifts and and the call of God are irrevocable If THEIR gifts and call are irrevocable then ours which is made under a better covenant are irrevocable because of election, you don't like it so I'll say it again BECAUSE OF ELECTION.
  5. the totton linnet

    What I Can Boast About

    * And I say it is free will that points the finger at God, if God ever gave man free will then sin is His fault, nobody answered Designist satisfactorily. God does not give people free will to sin, He forbids it, He says we may have life but He warns that the wages of sin is death. Whether man chooses life, that is God's will, but if man chooses sin then he must die according to God's will concerning the soul that sinneth, it shall die. If you can see free will somewhere there dear bro then you have remarkable eyesight. God KNEW that man would sin, He knew the sorrow and agony that must come through sin and in foreseeing it for each and everyone of us He fore planned the remedy, He made the way possible for each one to recieve forgiveness, healing, and peace MIRACULOUSLY by the cross. You will find healing for every hurt if you will recieve it as a divine exchange, "the chastisement for our peace was upon Him." you will only find it at the cross, not by human reason. It makes no moe sense than the fact that He bore our sins away miraculously by a divine exchange, so He bore our sorrows away. The pharisees went over and above the law, they did far more than the law required but all the wrong stuff, [and actually what they did, they did only when in public view it was utter hypocrisy of the kind that is a stench in God's nostrils because it overlooked mercy. They made it hard for people to come to God especially the poor. How simple God makes His salvation, only believe, anybody can do that, the more anybody adds to that the harder they make it for a very large slice of humanity, the VERY ONES who God wants to save. The poor, the weak, the unprudent, the unwise, people that have nothing to bring and are nothing . How does rotten free will help the feeble in mind? I mean truly handicapped, are they able to listen and weigh it all up and "make a decision?" THAT'S why free willers do not like to approach people in their desperation, when people are desperate in mind and body, what hope do the free will brigade offer? I've seen what they do, they start wagging the finger, they start castigating and lecturing, "believe or be damned." All they ever needed to do is point to Jesus, point to the cross, "cry to Him, believe in Him, He'll help you." then leave the Holy Ghost to do the work and He will. The free willers will give a five point lecture laying down all kinds of conditions. I doesn't want free will, I want God's will. Not that free will is anything but a rotten lie in the first place. What make's the gospel a laughing stock as Fred says is not predestination, that is in the bible, you would have to tear whole pages and chapters out to get rid of it. What makes people laugh is this "God loves you but He will send you to hell."
  6. the totton linnet

    Vessels Of Wrath

    * I believe these words. My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow Me and I give them eternal life and they shall never perish, and no-one shall snatch them out of My hand, My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all and no-one is able to snatch them out of His hand, I and the Father are one. If somebody wants to stand and quibble with the Lord and put in a load of ifs and buts that is their affair. I will rejoice and give praise and thanks. The reference in Romans 9 is not actually to Jeremiah but to Isaiah 45-9 "woe to him who questions his Maker, an earthen vessel with the potter. Does the clay say to Him who formed it "what are you making?...or...your work has no handles." Woe to him who says to his father "what are you begetting? ...or to a woman in travail with what are you in travail?" Thus says the Lord the Holy One of Israel and his Maker "will you question Me about My children? or command Me concerning the work of My hands." And I believe in election, you wanna boast that Israel failed? God says they stumbled in order that the Gentiles would be saved. They are enemies for the gospel's sake but BELOVED because of the fathers for God's gifts and calling are without repentance. Israel will be saved, they are elect.
  7. the totton linnet

    What I Can Boast About

    I love God, I love the way He says things, when He wants to show forth His choice of us in the great doctrine of Election He sets us forward as SHEEP Anybody on EFT want to boast about being a sheep? Jesus said "you have not chosen me, I have chosen you" I get grief because I am stupid enough to believe Him, I am [how co-incidental] in this same debate on another forum, or at least I WAS the thread [not one I started] got shut don because of the sheer spite and wrath of the free-will camp, it ended with them getting their voodoo out and cursing [in Jesu's name of course] because I challenged them to find a scripture saying that we at anytime have chosen the Lord. The idea goes against every chapter and verse of the NT If the English cricket board when they want to select a side with a good chance of giving the Aussies a good hiding in the test choose Freddy Flintoff nobody is in the least bit surprised, he is the best. He can bowl out the whole Aussie side out in one days play, it has been known that one player when he saw mighty Freddy charging toward him down the wicket before letting the heavy cork ball fly at 90 miles per hour had a little accident in his pants, that's the kind of fear Freddy as a pace bowler inspires. When he comes into bat, if he's on form, he is a joy to watch, whacking he ball around all corners and into the crowd and even out of the grounds, one of his slogs ended up in a no 9. bus to Victoria. But if they were to choose ME to face the fearsome Downunders a great gasp of surprise would go up. I can't even get my fingers around the seam of the ball, one of those leg pads they wear would fit around the whole of me and I can scarce lift a big willow cricket bat. They are not going to choose me to play cricket for the local primary school let alone England. But God chose ME glory hallelujah, what in heavens name would He want to do THAT for? I'll tell you why predestination and election makes sense, because if God had not for His own name's sake decided and planned it all in eternity, if He had waited until we were born and grew up to be the evil people we are, He would have saved NOBODY. He swore in eternity that He would have a people, before e'er a star twinkled in the sky or a robin sang. That's when he made His covenants and He's been working on those covenants ever since, not because He ever saw or foresaw anything good in us but simply because He would. You wanna boast of something? boast that God chose you because you were foolish, have a brag about how weak you are, how poor, boast about how NOTHING you are. "For consider your call brethren, not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many powerful, no many of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish to shame the wise, God chose what was weak in the world to shame the strong, God chose what was low and desised in the world even things that are not to bring to nothing the things that are. So that no human being might boast in the presence of God." You talk about Pharisees, they were the free willers, oh yes, they of their own free will tithed even down to the dill, they fasted twice a week and praye long prayers. Paul was the chief of them, When he saw the grace of God shining in Stephen it made him grit his teeth. God will have men and women accept His salvation as a free gift, nothing to be earned, just humbly accept, there was nothing you did to merit it and there is sure nothing you can do to continue in it, only abide in Him, believe. But the moment you add a conditions to it, it ceases to be grace, now it is wages. If you started out by faith but now are continuing by works then you are not abiding in Him you ar in danger of falling away from grace, this is the very thing Heb.6:4 warns about. You are holding up the cross to contempt, it is no longer sufficient to save you, YOU must supplement it by whatever it is you suppose enables you to persevere. You are saying He began a good work in me but He is not able to carry it through to completion on thet day.
  8. the totton linnet

    Predestination & Free Will

    * All those I have never breathed a word of, they are ALL straw men except the last one, of course free will is a works based, part man part God salvation. neither can you say "to God be all the glory" because some at least must go to you. Paul the great predestination preacher said "there dwelleth no good thing in me" I say the same, but there must have been some spark of virtue in Fred, he was able to discern his own sinfulness and God's virtue and Fred was wise enough to choose of his "own free will." I could never make such a boast as that before the Lord. We both could quote scriptures to support our views, there is no point. I have nothing to prove.
  9. the totton linnet

    "and God Said" Bible Study Question

    * Interesting Rico, what distinction make you between the "living word" and the written word? do you think there is a distinction to be made?
  10. the totton linnet

    Is Hell Eternal?

    God does not pour out the full measure of His anger at sin at once, He might have destroyed the first man and woman on the first occasion of their rebellion. God was determined to have sons and daughters and rather than the serpent should have any victory God set in motion His plan to save and ransome a people unto Himself. The parable of the wheat and tares shows forth God's thinking, He had sowed good seed, His enemy had sowed the ill seeds, as both began to sprout together there seemed little to distinguish them but anon the baneful presence of the tares made themselves known. The servants said "Lord do you want us to gather up the weeds? but God saidno lest in pulling up the tares you uproot the wheat also, wait until harvest when God will send His holy angels to gather out the tares and put them in bundles to be burned" God's concern is for His wheat, not for the taares of the enemy. there is no warant for saying God loves all men.
  11. the totton linnet

    Is Hell Eternal?

    Naturally you know I do not accept a scrap of this Scan, there are universalist presentations of the gospel as I have indicated that I could work with but if these views formed any part of your message I could not work with it. As has come to light on other threads ol' Suz is firmly in the free grace, predestination camp. We see sin and the nature of sin differently. Man is a limited creation, he can only see so far, hear to a certain distance, his reach is limited and he has only a certain measue of strength. In order to see the magnitude and full horror of man's wickedness you would need to take some of those limits off. He is limited by society and laws that are set in place in order to curtail his ability to harm fellow human beings. There are certain things that man can do to remove some of these barriers and limitations, first and foremost he can form associations with other men who share the same wicked aspirations, if such associations become large enough and strong enough they can the set upon a programne of fear and coersement to force obedience and so become a ruling power in the community [gangs] and nation [evil government.] Now when you see these powers on the local or nationwide you begin to get a glimmer of the magnitude and intention of sin in the human heart. Terror reigns, enslavement of whole peoples whose lives are reduce to the most grevious oppression, cruelty and violence become the executive arm of government. These are not imaginations, this is man's history, go see in Egypt the sphinx and wonder how they were built, nay no need to go so far back in history, The names you mention are contempory names, go to chicago or New york or you may like to visit some of East London or Glasgow's primary schools. They might have formed societies for the promotion of freedom, healing and the enrichment of humanity, there are some such who do. This evil, is not only a matter of individual acts of sin it is a condition of the heart, it is what man is by nature, he was not created like that he has become like that through sin. You and I do not see the inner man of the soul to know what it is like we see only the outer appearance and when we look into the mirror we see little difference between our outer appearance and the appearance of others. But God sees, He knows it right well. God says this nature is not worthy to live forever in His presence, it is fit only to be kept locked up and kept under fire. I agree with God. He has set a time when He is going to make a seperation and a judgement between men and He will judge fairly with equity what persons to allot which punishment to, for some it may well mean annihilation, some it may mean banishment into outer darkness [where will be weeping and gnashing of teeth] and some will be assigned to the eternal flames. There will be no escape from this judgement when the time arrives. everyone will be rewarded according to their nature. Man's only hope is God's mercy, His mercy is set forth in Jesus, He is the one who will judge, if anybody is desirous of mercy let them cry to Jesus they will find an abundance of mercy in Him.
  12. the totton linnet

    Is Hell Eternal?

    * Well you would not want me to lie and say you were being honest in your wrangling of scripture if I did not think it, would you? You are of course fre to return the "compliment" people who read our comments side by side will decide.
  13. the totton linnet

    Is Hell Eternal?

    * Hi Scan First and foremost I reject passionately the term torture, the bible term is punishment. Now we are getting down to some basic understandings here, for instance I abhor that my Father in heaven should be thought to be the same father of Hitler. I see no warrant in scripture for saying that God loves all men. In the parable of the wheat and tares the good man sowed good seed, it was the enemy who sowed tares among the wheat. Jesus looked at those who were seeking to slay Him and said "ye are of your father the devil and his works ye seek to do, he was a murderer from the beginning" God makes it very clear that man is at emnity with Him, if emnity were a passive thing all would be well wouldn't it? if it were a thing hidden away only in the heart perhaps it would be tolerable, indeed it is hidden away in the heart, it seethes there like a simmering couldren of hate and malice because by a very great and varied means God keeps it under control. But the moment it has the opportunity of expressing itself it boils over into a raging torrent of scolding hatred, this is what happens when evil men get into places of power. Just look at what they do. Their whole endeavour is destroy God's creation, YOU make no mistake my friend they will want to destoy YOU. because you are created in the image of God. God has set within society many means and ways of protecting you Scan from the sheer hate and malice of the devil and his co-workers, do not do foolishly and play into the devils hands by espousing and promoting false doctrines which seek to undermine and weaken the barriers that God has put up for your protection. However imperfectly you may percieve those barriers to be manned and operated, instead seek to strengthen and uphold them by speaking the truth with regard to the nature of sin in the human heart and it's inevitable consequences. That does not mean you have to become a hotten hell-fire preacher spitting out damnation to all near and far, God's word is just as powerful in sharing the good news of His love. But I would feel that I have not done my duty, nor have I truly loved if I neglect to warn and admonish every man. One thing I am certain of, on that day God's justice and fairness will be utterly clear for all to see. I was sharing with a bunch of bad lads from Scotland who were down in London to await trial at the Old Bailey, from Gasgow, they were hard young guys, I found out later what they were in custody for. The hostel that I was working in had a secure accomodation called a bail wing for people awaiting trial and these guys descended upon our bible group. I was stressing the GOOD news, how that Jesus promised rivers of flowing waters flowing from our innermost being, this spake He of the spirit which is given to those who believe on Him. And guy piped up in his gutteral Glasgae "Hey Judy [if I had been a guy he would have said "Jimmy" ] Ye believe the' book don't ya" I told him with all my heart I do, he said "then ye believe in hell" he looked somewhat surprised, I said that I did so believe. The colour drained visibly from his face, [we all thought it was fury] white as ghost he went and he sprang up from his chair and stumbled out [we thought in a rage] But he went to the hostel overseer who was christian and begged him to show him how to be saved. He and his friends were awaiting trial for slashing peoples faces with razors, they would just walk up and slash the face and walk away, the victim would not know what had happened until their face fell apart. Two of his gang were also converted through the change they saw in him.
  14. the totton linnet

    Is Hell Eternal?

    * You may have greater intellectual abilities than I have or you may not, you may have found better scholarship to interpret that passage than I have. I do not believe so. How is the punishment eternal and those being punished not eternal? if those being punished ceased to exist so would the punishment. I certainly DO accuse you [and the scholars you follow] of deliberately putting a different interpretation upon the words of Jesus Christ than the meaning He intended, perhaps you are decieved into doing so. You may believe that to be an unfriendly statement, I am sorry if you do. I see the same thing happening in a whole library load of christian theology, people trying to make scripture say what it doesn't say making the scriptures squeaze into their doctrine. I have to be on guard MYSELF constantly checking the VERY SAME tendency. What I am arguing against is the mind of the flesh, whether yours or mine makes no difference, it stinks. But what stinks more is if the devil comes into and exploits it even more and what started out as a minor abberation becomes a major departure from the truth. So don't take offence, if I have offended I am sorry, but I do not wish to offend the Lord.
  15. the totton linnet

    Is Hell Eternal?

    Well the scripture you are trying so desperately hard to make say something other than what it does say tells you that the soul is eternal. Verse 46 says these shall go away into everlasting punishment, try with all your might friend but that word means exactly what it seems to mean.
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