Jump to content
Evolution Fairytale Forum
Sign in to follow this  
skwayred

The Blasphemy Challenge

Recommended Posts

Non-belief is a misnomer. It is, in fact,  a belief in something. In this case, a belief there is no God (or may not be a God for the agnostic).

41002[/snapback]

You're creating a false dichotomy.

 

I have to know what God is before I can have any belief there is no God. And at the moment all God is to me, is an incoherent concept.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're creating a false dichotomy.

 

I have to know what God is before I can have any belief there is no God.  And at the moment all God is to me, is an incoherent concept.

41031[/snapback]

So, you believe there is no God then?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, you believe there is no God then?

41033[/snapback]

Like I said, I would have to know what God is, to know whether I believe there is no such thing or not.

 

As I stated in the post you commented on; I have no belief in God. Because IMO to say, I believe there is no God, is a different claim.

 

Firstly I think "I believe there is no God" is a categorical error, because I suspect you are equivocating "belief" with a "faith" there is no God. In my view, I could only say I believe there is no god, if I had a justification for believing there is no God.

 

And as I do not know what God is, because I find the concept incoherent, I cannot justify any belief there is no God. And I'm certainly not going to believe there is no God, on faith!!

 

So, I do not believe there is a God. Because I do not know what it is I would believe - if I were to believe there was no God. Therefore, I have no belief on the issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like I said, I would have to know what God is, to know whether I believe there is no such thing or not. 

 

As I stated in the post you commented on; I have no belief in God.  Because IMO to say, I believe there is no God, is a different claim. 

 

Firstly I think "I believe there is no God" is a categorical error, because I suspect you are equivocating "belief" with a "faith" there is no God.  In my view, I could only say I believe there is no god, if I had a justification for believing there is no God. 

 

And as I do not know what God is, because I find the concept incoherent, I cannot justify any belief there is no God.  And I'm certainly not going to believe there is no God, on faith!!

 

So, I do not believe there is a God.  Because I do not know what it is I would believe - if I were to believe there was no God.  Therefore, I have no belief on the issue.

41036[/snapback]

 

First, you need to look up the definitions of belief and faith if you are going to equivocate between the two.

 

Second, there are an abundant amount of definitions for God (not god or gods). You know exactly who I am talking about whether you care to admit that or not. This is another equivocation on your part to squirm out of admitting that you believe He does not exist. Which, of course, is still a belief.

 

Third, once you come face to face with your equivocation about your belief in “non-belief†(which, by the way, is still a belief) and the faith you have in your non-belief, you’ll be a step closer to having an honest conversation about the subject.

 

 

 

First, you need to look up the definitions of belief and faith if you are going to equivocate between the two.

 

Second, there are an abundant amount of definitions for God (not god or gods). You know exactly who I am talking about whether you care to admit that or not. This is another equivocation on your part to squirm out of admitting that you believe He does not exist. Wich, of course, is still a belief.

 

Third, you need to look up the definitions for "belief" and "faith"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think "belief" and "faith" mean the same thing, so I'm not equivocating. If you read my post you would have seen, for me, to have a belief I need to justify it.

 

Recall what I said, "In my view, I could only say I believe there is no god, if I had a justification for believing there is no God." In short I am saying I need to justify the belief there is no God, in order to have it. But I know a belief in God generallly requires faith. So the claim "I believe in God" is generally a faith based claim. I do not have faith, thus cannot have a belief either way on that subject, given that beliefs about God require faith.

 

So clearly I am not equivocating, but I suspect you may be when you create the false dichotomy ("I believe there is no God", is the only alternative to "I believe there is a God")

 

And the fact everything seems to be equivocation to you, I can no longer take you accusations seriously.

 

Also, I've explained to you that I find God to be an incoherent concept. And you have yourself admitted there are an abundant amount of definitions. Yet, you want to insist I know "who" or what we are talking about.

 

You might want to consider going to the Testimonies Forum and reading my testimony. The only God can imagine is one of two possibilities; one that I have no idea and understanding about, or the one that appeals to my sense of what I would like God to be (which is really just my personal version and would not be the same as yours). So "who" or what ever I am talking about, as far as I'm concerned is something of my imagination. Therefore, I do not believe there is a God, because I do not know what it would mean to believe there is a God. For me to believe there is no God, I would have to know what it is I am denying. Do I deny God? No. I simply do not waste time contemplating whether there is a God or not, hence the non-belief.

 

And this is not squirming as you rudely put it. I simply do not have a belief that any assent or dissent can be attributed too, because I do not understand what it is to believe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So Loungehead... you claim to be a liar then???

 

Because we know that you know that the belief in God, and Creation exist. We know that you know that our beliefs exist. You know they exist, therefore you deny them, because you don't see any evidence for it.

 

Yes, you do deny God, because you do not believe in God. I have justification for my belief and faith in God. Do you really really really think we accept without thinking??? Or is your logic just flawed? You know exactly what your denying.

 

You don't see evidence for any religion in the world... therefore you deny them all. I deny that the Tooth fairy exist, and you deny that God exist... You know God is exactly what your denying... so just stop beating around the bush.

 

If I deny that the Tooth Fairy exist, it doesn't mean that the Tooth Fairy really has to exist for me to deny that the Tooth Fairy exist. In other words just say what you mean, and be done with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We know that you know that our beliefs exist. You know they exist, therefore you deny them, because you don't see any evidence for it.

I do not deny you have your beliefs. Let's keep some perspective here.

 

This conversation is about whether there is such thing as non-belief. Ron claims this is a misnomer. He thinks I believe there is no God.

 

The fact of the matter is, I haven't completely ruled God out, so his assertion is clearly wrong. I have unfortunately lost my faith. I have not replaced it with another belief, as you and Ron wish to believe, I simply lack a belief in God.

Yes, you do deny God, because you do not believe in God.  I have justification for my belief and faith in God.  Do you really really really think we accept without thinking???  Or is your logic just flawed? You know exactly what your denying.

I do not deny there is a God. Where have I said, I know or believe there is no God. There is a difference between not believing something and believing otherwise. I am of the former.

 

1. I believe there is God

2. I do not believe there is God

3. I believe there is no God

 

Each of those statements say something different. Please stop equivocating.

You don't see evidence for any religion in the world... therefore you deny them all.  I deny that the Tooth fairy exist, and you deny that God exist... You know God is exactly what your denying... so just stop beating around the bush.

You're being highly presumptious. There is plenty of evidence religion exists, so I can hardly deny them; Buddhism, Islam, or Hinduism.

 

I do not know all of their beliefs, so I definitely do not share any of their beliefs. So, obviously I do not believe whatever it is they believe. That is different from denying the object of their belief.

If I deny that the Tooth Fairy exist, it doesn't mean that the Tooth Fairy really has to exist for me to deny that the Tooth Fairy exist.  In other words just say what you mean, and be done with it.

41167[/snapback]

Please answer this....Do you the believe in Ba'al? Or do you believe there is no Ba'al?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do believe that non-belief and denying mean the same thing.

 

I looked in the Webster dictionary for the defnition of Deny, and here is what I got: to declare untrue, 2 to refuse to recognize or acknowledge, 3 to refuse to grant ( a request) 4 to reject as false ( a theory)

 

So do you believe in the God of the Bible... or do you reject God as False based upon what evidence you see before you now or not??? If you are undecided then you will need to state yourself as being an agnostic, and not an atheist.

 

I deny the existance of Baal, or I do not believe in Baal.... same thing. I reject Baal as false.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do believe that non-belief and denying mean the same thing.

We will just have to agree to disagree then. To continue would be wasting each others time.

I looked in the Webster dictionary for the defnition of Deny, and here is what I got: to declare untrue, 2 to refuse to recognize or acknowledge, 3 to refuse to grant ( a request) 4 to reject as false ( a theory)

This is a discussion about God as something that exists; not God as a theory. So your choice of meaning is wrong.

 

And as I said, I find the God Theory incoherent, which is why I do not believe in God. So it is the theory I reject, not God's existence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We will just have to agree to disagree then.  To continue would be wasting each others time.

 

This is a discussion about God as something that exists; not God as a theory.  So your choice of meaning is wrong.

 

And as I said, I find the God Theory incoherent, which is why I do not believe in God.  So it is the theory I reject, not God's existence.

41172[/snapback]

So, God exists then? I mean, since you don't reject God, He must exist for you then... Right??!???!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, God exists then? I mean, since you don't reject God, He must exist for you then... Right??!???!

41884[/snapback]

No. I do not reject the existence (of whatever God means), nor do I embrace the existence. God is a non-issue for me. I'm not even agnostic about it, because God does not mean anything to me. I cannot consider God's existence or non-existence because I do not know what it means for God to exist.

 

The only way you will be able to understand my position is if you first tell me what you think God is, because it probably differs from my understanding.

 

I was going to explain my position to you in terms of not knowing what it means for something to exist beyond the universe, but I'm not sure if your version of God exists in that way. So to avoid an unnecessary debate about my claims about God or the characteristics of God, its easier for you just to say what God means to you.

 

I think you'll find our concepts of God are so different that we aren't even talking about the same thing. So for me to say "I believe there is no God" is only believing there is no God as I understand God. That does not mean God does not exist, does it? So really "I do not believe God exists" because I do not know what it means for God to exist, to make any claim there is no God.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No.  I do not reject the existence (of whatever God means), nor do I embrace the existence.  God is a non-issue for me.  I'm not even agnostic about it, because God does not mean anything to me. I cannot consider God's existence or non-existence because I do not know what it means for God to exist. 

 

The only way you will be able to understand my position is if you first tell me what you think God is, because it probably differs from my understanding.

 

I was going to explain my position to you in terms of not knowing what it means for something to exist beyond the universe, but I'm not sure if your version of God exists in that way.  So to avoid an unnecessary debate about my claims about God or the characteristics of God, its easier for you just to say what God means to you.

 

I think you'll find our concepts of God are so different that we aren't even talking about the same thing.  So for me to say "I believe there is no God" is only believing there is no God as I understand God.  That does not mean God does not exist, does it?  So really "I do not believe God exists" because I do not know what it means for God to exist, to make any claim there is no God.

41941[/snapback]

WOW, now that's circular :D

 

I'll try to get back to this later because I don’t have time right now. But, it sounds like you're so confused that you're trying to convince yourself of what you’re saying. And, I'm not trying to be mean (or argumentative), I'm just expressing what I'm reading from you.

 

Also, don’t attempt to paint me as dense, I currently have two degrees, and am aggressively pursuing two more. Further, I’m not saying I’m the sharpest tool in the shed, but I’m far from illiterate and un-read.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

WOW, now that's circular  :D

 

I'll try to get back to this later because I don’t have time right now. But, it sounds like you're so confused that you're trying to convince yourself of what you’re saying. And, I'm not trying to be mean (or argumentative), I'm just expressing what I'm reading from you.

How is it circular? I accept what I describe may be convoluted, but I doing my best to express what its like to be an atheist.

 

You seem to assume that because you believe there is a God, that any other position is a positive denial. I could provide analogies to show why this is not the case, but I'm not sure you genuinely want to understand. I think you just want to maintain your view that "I believe there is no God". So it would be waste of time for me to go down that path.

 

I could admit, "I believe there is no jealous and proud of it; petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak; a vindictive, blood thirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, H*m*ph*bic, racist, infanticidal, genecidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalonmaniacal, sado-masochistic, capriciously malevalent bully God."

 

But wouldn't you just deny that is what God is? And if so, what is it that I believe, if "I believe there is no God?" Aren't I merely believing there is no false god, because I have the wrong impression of God?

 

Even I recognise the limits of my understanding. Why can't you?

 

As many time as I have to repeat myself, "I DO NOT KNOW WHAT GOD IS, SO AM UNABLE TO FORM ANY BELIEF ABOUT GOD'S EXISTENCE OR NON-EXISTENCE."

Also, don’t attempt to paint me as dense, I currently have two degrees, and am aggressively pursuing two more. Further, I’m not saying I’m the sharpest tool in the shed, but I’m far from illiterate and un-read.

41943[/snapback]

Don't bear false witness. If I have painted you in any such way, please point it out, so I can correct myself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:D

42146[/snapback]

What's with the look on your face?

 

My sister (not Judy but a different one) sent me that article. I told her that I did get a little chuckle out of the de-baptizing with hairdryers bit. :D :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What's with the look on your face?

42149[/snapback]

What... This look?

 

Posted Image

 

Or this look?

 

Posted Image

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is nothing I can say to reason with these people. They have made a conscious decision, though done obviously in ignorance. Because if they had experienced what we have i.e. "powers of the world to come," and a foretaste of heaven, then they could not blaspheme. Instead they would grieve like I do for others who scorn the "Spirit of love."

 

I feel the need to get to brass tacks on the Holy Spirit. Who can understand it all? We can not see Him, but we sense Him sometimes from outside ourselves--the surrounding sensation of an overshadowing, protective, peaceful, ever the same Presence--along with an inner knowledge that we need to "look" and "reach."

 

Sometimes it is not outward but very deep inside--in the inner recesses of "the belly." "Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water" which Jesus spoke of concerning the Spirit. It's a healing balm that takes away bitterness, anger, lust and stress. Or whatever is "your" sin. Nothing in the world--no drug, no 12 step program can do this. Not to where your character--(not behavior but your inner person) changes over time, as you stay in contact with Him. This is called sanctification. It is the "anointing" spoken of by the apostle John (1 John), and it breaks the yoke of bondage.

 

The first time I ever noticed the Holy Spirit and was aware of it was when I was in fifth grade. I had responded to Christ and had started going to church with my parents regularly. Many Sundays I noticed after service (my pastor preached the Word--and he did not "chase any rabbits") I would feel for lack of a better word--a "deposit." It had a sensation of a tangible but intangible substance and location inside my body. A better word is "tangible weight of power and peace"--that's as close as I can get. It's location was in my lower abdomen. It radiated a warm peace, and all the while I would be reminded of the scriptures I had read and heard. It would fade though as I put my mind on this world. And soon the anger, lust, fear and darkness of this present world would snuff it out.

 

I was not, at that time in my life, a committed Christian. But I knew the truth of what the Holy Spirit, which I attributed generally as God putting something in me--grace or whatever--had done for me. I knew that if I would live the life that others might be drawn by the same power--but I didn't then.

 

I never escaped that truth all through my teen years, when I smoked weed, and did the wine women and song thing. But I could never have any peace, because I always knew what God had done in me.

 

I could go on but I just wanted to say these people that are blaspheming are either lying when they deny His presence, or for some reason they have never been in His presence. I know that He is still working on them though--because He will continue to convict the world (unregenerate people--not yet born again) of sin, righteousness, and judgment. So I encourage you not to resist His drawings by listening to the fruitless, hi sounding reasoning of darkened minds. For a sinner does not see what he stumbles at. An unregenerate mind does not know where his suffering comes from.

 

 

 

 

 

P.S. Who else can make you weep at the words of a song of praise? Who else can give you the sensation of being washed inside and pure, and give you a spirit of a little child? No amount of imagination can do what He does!

 

"They over came him (Satan) by the blood of the lamb, and the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto the death." Rev 12:11 Tell someone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is nothing I can say to reason with these people.  They have made a conscious decision, though done obviously in ignorance.  Because if  they had experienced what we have i.e. "powers of the world to come," and a foretaste of heaven, then they could not blaspheme.  Instead they would grieve like I do for others who scorn the "Spirit of love."

46186[/snapback]

It's a Romans chapter One thing brother... Although the ignorance is of the self inflicted kind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you heard of this stuff? Atheist laymen are now busy video-taping themselves cussing, swearing and blaspheming Jesus, God the Father and the Holy Spirit and feel good about their boldness (for doing so) later on. I think it's so tasteless and puerile but ridiculously funny. They really cracked me up these kids:

 

http://www.blasphemychallenge.com

 

Your thoughts?

 

I became an atheist for my Gwynnies' birthday, two months ago. The first time I considered becoming an atheist is this link, and I wanted nothing to do with it. I still do not like that group. It is not possible to blaspheme Holy Spirit (might as well get that one outta the way), thus their error was senseless sensationalism.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I became an atheist for my Gwynnies' birthday, two months ago. The first time I considered becoming an atheist is this link, and I wanted nothing to do with it. I still do not like that group. It is not possible to blaspheme Holy Spirit (might as well get that one outta the way), thus their error was senseless sensationalism.

 

You must have read my post on this then. :) Before I really understood the word of God I actually thought they were doing people a disservice. It's a huge deception on their part because it requires the blasphemer to actually believe that what they did will do "what they say it will". As I said in the other thread where this was mentioned, for God to be "all powerful" as the Bible says, not even one sin can block the free gift of salvation. So it turns out that this unpardonable sin becomes only a sin that is the saved commit it applies.

 

You can read about this in more detail here if you already have not: http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4723&view=findpost&p=76955

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You must have read my post on this then. :) Before I really understood the word of God I actually thought they were doing people a disservice. It's a huge deception on their part because it requires the blasphemer to actually believe that what they did will do "what they say it will". As I said in the other thread where this was mentioned, for God to be "all powerful" as the Bible says, not even one sin can block the free gift of salvation. So it turns out that this unpardonable sin becomes only a sin that is the saved commit it applies.

 

You can read about this in more detail here if you already have not: http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4723&view=findpost&p=76955

 

Actually, it was Ezekiel. ;)

 

I checked your link; you do some thinking. From what I read, however, we may be on the same page. Ya cannot blaspheme that which you do not know, and once one knows Holy Spirit - that'll be game over. I'm a non-denominational atheist; I know Holy Spirit as tao - the rhythm of the universe - but the only "omni" I contend is omnipresence. But as I said in my greetings thread, I ain't here with my soapbox, I'm here to socialize. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No wonder God is going to laugh and mock while atheists burn in hell.

 

"I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." - Proverbs 1:26

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×

Important Information

Our Terms