Jump to content
Evolution Fairytale Forum
Sign in to follow this  
scott

Absolute Truth

Recommended Posts

Absolue Truths do exist, and you cannot get around that absolute fact.  If my cat had just been run over by a steam roller 5 minutes ago, then that would be an absolute truth.  We could touch, feel, and take pictures of this elusive absolute truth that would be my poor flat as a pancake kitty.  You would never be able to disprove this truth, for it would be unmistakebly so.

 

23040[/snapback]

How would you go about proving that the earth wasn't created 3 minutes ago, with your kittie already squished, and all your memories of your life up to that point already intact in your brain?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or are you trying to make a point about how we don't even have an epistemology?

23041[/snapback]

This comes right out of the mouths of people who are asked. Anytime, I've asked for your standards since the Bible obviously isn't it, I get blank stares.

 

Then I offer some options:

 

Secular Humanism - Humanist manifesto I, II, or III, maybe?

Communism perhaps per Carl Marx?

Nihilism maybe?

 

Do you know what the universal response is:

 

"Look we have no set way of looking at things." or something to that effect. So, yes, by your own admission you have no foundation, just sinking sand. Why should anyone join you?

 

It's like your looking at someone on a firm foundation and see sinking sand all around you and instead of letting the person on the foundation pull you up, it is your job to make them feel bad for their security, so you try to pull them into the sinking sands of unbridled skepticism.

 

What a generous offer but I'll pass, thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How would you go about proving that the earth wasn't created 3 minutes ago, with your kittie already squished, and all your memories of your life up to that point already intact in your brain?

23042[/snapback]

Ahhhh! Here is that desire to place doubts the way I expect to see. It all comes back to what is worthy of your trust?

 

Hey Judy,

 

I've never received an answer for this.

 

How do you test and demonstrate the truth, that truth can be tested and demonstrated?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This comes right out of the mouths of people who are asked. Anytime, I've asked for your standards since the Bible obviously isn't it, I get blank stares.

 

Then I offer some options:

 

Secular Humanism - Humanist manifesto I, II, or III, maybe?

Communism perhaps per Carl Marx?

Nihilism maybe?

 

Do you know what the universal response is:

 

"Look we have no set way of looking at things." or something to that effect. So, yes, by your own admission you have no foundation, just sinking sand. Why should anyone join you?

 

It's like your looking at someone on a firm foundation and see sinking sand all around you and instead of letting the person on the foundation pull you up, it is your job to make them feel bad for their security, so you try to pull them into the sinking sands of unbridled skepticism.

 

What a generous offer but I'll pass, thanks.

23043[/snapback]

I don't understand how unbridled gullibility is preferable to skepticism. Other than the fact that it makes you feel good, and superior, and assures you of eternal life.

 

Oh wait, I CAN see why you would buy into all that "truth."

 

Okay, carry on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't understand how unbridled gullibility is preferable to skepticism.  Other than the fact that it makes you feel good, and superior, and assures you of eternal life.

23045[/snapback]

This isn't an exclusive club. There are no secret handshakes and no esoteric knowledge. Just the truth, take it or leave it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ahhhh! Here is that desire to place doubts the way I expect to see. It all comes back to what is worthy of your trust?

 

Hey Judy,

 

I've never received an answer for this.

 

How do you test and demonstrate the truth, that truth can be tested and demonstrated?

23044[/snapback]

 

Well, let's see, I've been around now for about 1/2 a century. I've observed some things. I've read a few books. I've thought about things. Mostly, the universe appears to be pretty predictable, and life here on earth appears to be governed by natural laws. Reality seems pretty delicious and wonderful to me. I don't feel the need to add a supernatural element to it. I've been testing all my life. That's the reality that I've come up with. It's okay if other people come up with something different. *shrug*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This isn't an exclusive club. There are no secret handshakes and no esoteric knowledge. Just the truth, take it or leave it.

23046[/snapback]

It's a club that requires a certain suspension of disbelief, and a denial of experience, that I'm personally unwilling to participate in.

 

I'm not one who thinks blind faith is a particularly virtuous quality, and I'm puzzled by people who think it is.

 

I'm even more puzzled by people who continually protest that faith is not blind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's okay if other people come up with something different. *shrug*

23047[/snapback]

Really?!? Then what are we talking for? Why the snide remarks like this?:

 

I don't understand how unbridled gullibility is preferable to skepticism.  Other than the fact that it makes you feel good, and superior, and assures you of eternal life.

 

Oh wait, I CAN see why you would buy into all that "truth."

 

Okay, carry on.

23045[/snapback]

You're obviously trying to convince us of something. Are you going to now deny this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then I offer some options:

 

Secular Humanism - Humanist manifesto I, II, or III, maybe?

Communism perhaps per Carl Marx?

Nihilism maybe?

 

23043[/snapback]

Nothing I know to be true depends upon any books written by human hands.

 

Your beliefs, on the other hand . . .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really?!? Then what are we talking for? Why the snide remarks like this?:

You're obviously trying to convince us of something. Are you going to now deny this?

23049[/snapback]

 

You invited me here, Adam.

 

I'll be glad to leave you and the rest of the boys on EFF to your happy delusions. The testosterone levels here do sometimes get a bit stifling. :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, there are absolute truths. But, You’re mistaking beliefs with truths, which is a common  for a relativist.

Are you absolutely sure there are no absolute truths?

You’re mistaking tolerances with truths. Absolute truths are absolute (5x5= 25 at ALL times, in All places), Tolerances can be the exacting as long as they fall within the threshold of said tolerance…

If your grasp of reality is to deny “absolute truth†of absolute truth, you are succeeding. Regardless of how incorrect you are. You see, you have yet to assail the fact of absolute truth. Oh, you’ve called it different names, and miss-defined it. But the bottom line is this; you have failed to prove 2+2= anything other than 4. And until you can disprove the absolute truth of so simple an equation, you fail any and all more intricate levels of logic, philosophy and science….

23053[/snapback]

So to you mathematical and metaphysical truths are one and the same. Got it.

 

Back to dimensions and tolerances: When making a part, there does actually exist a perfect, ideal part, one that the machinist strives to emulate with each part that he produces. Where does this part exist? In the mind of the machinist. Which coincidentally is where your absolute truth exists - in the mind of the believer.

 

So I will hereby concede - Yes, absolute truth and God do exist. They exist in your mind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope you keep engaging this conversation because I would love to see your eyes opened to the dead-end that unbelief is as any useful epistemology.

 

Adam

23057[/snapback]

She never will Adam (although I pray I'm wrong), because pride and denial are a hard combination to swallow….

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But, it is absolutely true that you do think!

23065[/snapback]

Sometimes I wonder if this is true... :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought I already answered this.  Yes, absolute truths, like absolute measurements, certainly do exist.  Theoretically.  In your mind.  This does not make them any less real.   But they do not exist "out there, somewhere."

23069[/snapback]

Is this true for us like it is for you?

 

hmmm?

 

Yes, absolute truths, like absolute measurements, certainly do exist. Theoretically.

 

Theoretically, absolute truths do exist.

 

Certainly absolute truths, exist theoretically.

 

Like absolute measurements, theoretically, absolute truths do exist.

 

That was fun. :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  But they do not exist "out there, somewhere."

23069[/snapback]

Are you absolutely sure?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you absolutely sure?

23074[/snapback]

No, but I'm comfortably within my tolerances. :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Until God comes up to me and shakes my hand, I'm afraid I'll have to surmise that yeah, it is.

23073[/snapback]

Well, the concept of 'the real god' that would do such and such is the equivalent of idolatry because God is not your puppy.

 

I'm always amazed at people who think saying things like "If God was real He would do this..." or "If God was real the world would be like..." or "If God was God this is what He would be like..." is rational discourse. It actually reveals who's really god of their lives.

 

What obligation does God have to conform to your lively imagination? Maybe, we should ask:

 

Has God revealed Himself? If He has, what evidence is there to tell me who He is?

 

Can I trust Him? How does He communicate to us?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, but I'm comfortably within my tolerances. :lol:

23075[/snapback]

Three Questions:

 

Are you then denying your own statement?

 

Is that what you consider rational thought?

 

Does that mean you were lying or delusional?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you deny your own statement?

23077[/snapback]

I deny everything as absolutely positively probably sure that I don't know. :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Until God comes up to me and shakes my hand, I'm afraid I'll have to surmise that yeah, it is.

23073[/snapback]

He has many times, but you’re busy with your tolerances…..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

from t'other thread

http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/forum/in...opic=1944&st=20

 

I'm also quite comfortable conforming what I believe to what is known.  What a great way to put it!  That exactly describes my views.  I may use that as my new sig!  I enjoy speculating about things, but at the end of the day, what is known is what I come back to.

The known universe is a real, not an imaginary place, first of all.  Even in the known universe, however, there could well exist conditions conducive to life on other planets.  Just because we've not been visited by extraterrestrials, and probably never will be, does not mean life only exists here on earth.

23067[/snapback]

Thanks. In chronological order, thank you for surprising me - I really expected you to break your own analogy back there. And thank you for the compliment of quoting me in your signature.

 

"I am quite comfortable conforming what I believe to what is known."

 

But there is a drawback. As I understand it, you don't believe anything is known. A single pass renders the sentence somewhat similar to Sgt. Schultz' classic "I know nothing --- Nuh- Think!

 

But a single pass won't do, since the earlier clause is dependent upon the meaning of the latter. The phrase 'what I believe' thus gets entangled into perpetual conflict with 'what is known'. You cannot know nothing is known. Even if you convinced yourself you yourself knew nothing, you still would not know what other people know, and you're prohibited from finding out, lest you learn and come to know something.

 

You can cycle through the sentence time after time, and it'll never come out right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

She never will Adam (although I pray I'm wrong), because pride and denial are a hard combination to swallow….

23068[/snapback]

That's a tough thing to face.

 

I do hope this thread gets reviewed. It has some very interesting absurdities in it. We should probably stop with the one liners, Ikester's gonna crank down on this thread if we don't police ourselves.

 

Adam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see you that you do not understand the impossibility of showing that something is absolutely true. 

22948[/snapback]

Are you absolutely sure?
Why would he need to be absolutely sure?

First - A.Sphere made an 'absolute' statement, therefore A.Sphere needs to provide how HIS 'absolute' statement is anymore absolute that anyone elses!

Second - Since A.Sphere MADE an absolute statement, then YES we DO NEED to make "Absolutely Sure", otherwise A. Sphere is being illogical AND a hypocrite!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All belief systems are human inventions.

23019[/snapback]

So YOUR Atheistic belief system is a human invention as well?

 

That sounds a lot like religiosity!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I see you that you do not understand the impossibility of showing that something is absolutely true.

 

Are you absolutely sure?

As you'll notice, A.Sphere never answered this question, and Judy V answered it with a snide remark because she realized that she painted herself into a corner as soon as she chimed in to answer for A.Sphere's absence of an answer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×

Important Information

Our Terms