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Boxing The Creator Out

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Just to say that she wore a device around her chest which picked up vibrations, not in any way a hearing aid.

40451[/snapback]

Ah okay. You put 'or' in there, so I wasn't sure. Still, I'd love to hear from her doctor.

 

And to restate that there is stacks of evidence and it is not even difficult to find, your total lack of interest is what I said to you is the same as people everywhere, in the media for example, but if they hear of a statue crying or some useless to any purpose yarn they are queuing at  the door.

40451[/snapback]

Not 100% sure I'm following here. This is in reference to Googling miracle healings yes?

 

I have given examples on this thread, if you do not believe them why would you believe if I gave you 1000?

40451[/snapback]

Because one can usually be explained away, or ignored as a one off that probably has an explanation but hasn't been found. 1000 would be a great deal harder to deny. That's how science works after all. You need to be able to repeat an experiment to draw conclusions. Why should miracles be any different?

 

If you look at these stories on a case by case basis they're not too hard to ignore. It's when you take the time to look at the whole that you should start to see patterns emerge and be able to draw conclusions. So the more the merrier I say :D

 

If you wish not to believe you won't and it really is that stark and simple.

40451[/snapback]

I see this get brandied around a lot and honestly I don't buy it. Yes, there are some people who will delude themselves to the day they die, but most people can be convinced by certain evidences. I'll admit there is a good chunk of me that doesn't want to believe, but if shown the correct evidences enough times I'll have no choice but to buy into it.

 

Besides, if I believed everything that I was told/shown with only one example I'd spend all my money fitness equipment :P I think that kind of an attitude would be a dangerous way to live.

 

Edit: And on a final note, if the only people who will ever believe are the ones that want to, what's the point of preaching? It's those lost souls God wants more than any, right?

 

I will tell you something else about God, He is able to do the most astonishing things even in front of your eyes and make you not see them, I could give personal witness of that too but I'm not gonna.  :blink:

40451[/snapback]

Hmm, pity :lol:

 

Regards,

 

Arch.

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Ah okay. You put 'or' in there, so I wasn't sure. Still, I'd love to hear from her doctor.

Not 100% sure I'm following here. This is in reference to Googling miracle healings yes?

Because one can usually be explained away, or ignored as a one off that probably has an explanation but hasn't been found. 1000 would be a great deal harder to deny. That's how science works after all. You need to be able to repeat an experiment to draw conclusions. Why should miracles be any different?

 

If you look at these stories on a case by case basis they're not too hard to ignore. It's when you take the time to look at the whole that you should start to see patterns emerge and be able to draw conclusions. So the more the merrier I say :P

I see this get brandied around a lot and honestly I don't buy it. Yes, there are some people who will delude themselves to the day they die, but most people can be convinced by certain evidences. I'll admit there is a good chunk of me that doesn't want to believe, but if shown the correct evidences enough times I'll have no choice but to buy into it.

 

Besides, if I believed everything that I was told/shown with only one example I'd spend all my money fitness equipment :lol: I think that kind of an attitude would be a dangerous way to live.

 

Edit: And on a final note, if the only people who will ever believe are the ones that want to, what's the point of preaching? It's those lost souls God wants more than any, right?

Hmm, pity :blink:

 

Regards,

 

Arch.

40454[/snapback]

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Your assessment and mine regarding either man's ability or even desire to believe is different to mine, east and west different with no meeting point in the middle.

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Your assessment and mine regarding either man's ability or even desire to believe is different to mine, east and west different with no meeting point in the middle.

40468[/snapback]

I understand it's a different way of looking at things that most people wouldn't be used it. Mull it over :blink: I'm sure you can think of at least one occasion where you've been convinced of something you didn't want to believe.

 

Regards,

 

Arch.

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I understand it's a different way of looking at things that most people wouldn't be used it. Mull it over ;) I'm sure you can think of at least one occasion where you've been convinced of something you didn't want to believe.

 

Regards,

 

Arch.

40493[/snapback]

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If I wanted to wire my house I wouldn't call upon the advice or services of somebody who knew nothing about electrics or who was not fully experienced in the workings and application of electric power.

But electricians can be so narrow minded can't they? they absolutely insist that there must be a negative imput and a positive imput, such bigotry! the power they say must be properly channeled and conducted from secure and separate terminals, if only they would not nag so about the need for earthing and insulation etc, just who do they think they are?

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If I wanted to wire my house I wouldn't call upon the advice or services of somebody who knew nothing about electrics or who was not fully experienced in the workings and application of electric power.

But electricians can be so narrow minded can't they? they absolutely insist that there must be a negative imput and a positive imput, such bigotry! the power they say must be properly channeled and conducted from secure and separate terminals, if only they would not nag so about the need for earthing  and insulation etc, just who do they think they are?

40531[/snapback]

;)

 

This is a great example.

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;)

 

This is a great example.

40533[/snapback]

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Good day to you Adam, I hope you will have good fellowship today. I haves to smile sometimes, I kind of imagine some posters with their thumbs behind their braces, prognosticating, me I don't know a thing in the world about evolution but then neither do they :) So however amazingly super intellectuals they are poor little me is still way ahead because I do know God, He is my Friend. We have got the plusses and they have got stitch. But I am not going to even think about wiring my home. :)

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*

If I wanted to wire my house I wouldn't call upon the advice or services of somebody who knew nothing about electrics or who was not fully experienced in the workings and application of electric power.

But electricians can be so narrow minded can't they? they absolutely insist that there must be a negative imput and a positive imput, such bigotry! the power they say must be properly channeled and conducted from secure and separate terminals, if only they would not nag so about the need for earthing  and insulation etc, just who do they think they are?

40531[/snapback]

Sorry Totten, I gotta admit I did not make any sense of that :D Seriously, I feel like a right proper git. I honestly can't pull anything out of that :lol:

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Sorry Totten, I gotta admit I did not make any sense of that :D Seriously, I feel like a right proper git. I honestly can't pull anything out of that :lol:

40560[/snapback]

 

Arch,

 

I think she is trying to say that you are ignoring the obvious with these so-called miracles.

 

I don't think she is being fair with her assessment of your quandaries though.

 

If she would take another look at what you are trying to say Totten should see that you want to believe, but you need more evidence to believe.

 

Wishing and wanting something to be true is not a good enough reason to believe its true.

 

Such as the girl without eardrums. Do we have access to her medical records to show that she actually grew eardrums? Or is it possible that a combination of lip reading and the device that she is wearing have given this girl the ability to 'hear' what people are saying and interact with them?

 

You see no matter what you believe, miracle or not, you have a little girl who seemingly and suddenly started 'hearing' and responding to people with speech after someone prayed for her.

 

My question for Totten is to show us it was the prayer only that solved her issue as opposed to anything else.

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Arch,

 

I think she is trying to say that you are ignoring the obvious with these so-called miracles. 

 

I don't think she is being fair with her assessment of your quandaries though. 

 

If she would take another look at what you are trying to say Totten should see that you want to believe, but you need more evidence to believe. 

 

Wishing and wanting something to be true is not a good enough reason to believe its true.

 

Such as the girl without eardrums.  Do we have access to her medical records to show that she actually grew eardrums?  Or is it possible that a combination of lip reading and the device that she is wearing have given this girl the ability to 'hear' what people are saying and interact with them?

 

You see no matter what you believe, miracle or not, you have a little girl who seemingly and suddenly started 'hearing' and responding to people with speech after someone prayed for her. 

 

My question for Totten is to show us it was the prayer only that solved her issue as opposed to anything else.

40564[/snapback]

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I do not claim to be unique in my view about how God works, His modus operandum, but to modern christians I am unusual, that is because theology has changed to a remarkable degree in the last 150 years or so, and theology affects the way christians do evangelism. And even where christians have the same theological position that I have never-the-less they do not always follow through with their methodology.

 

I am not specifically trying to convince Arch or anybody else of anything, I believe the human heart in it's fallen state is incapable of believing in God or anything that God does-and that includes christians who may be reborn in their hearts yet never-the-less think along the same lines and thought processes as before they were saved, including me but I am learning. :D

 

It's the same as when preaching, see the difference, if I thought that you or Arch or anyone else had the capabilty of believing what I am preaching, I would appeal to you, I would make arguments along the lines of great philosophical weight or scientific data [if I were able-but I'm not :lol: ] But I do not believe that Arch or anybody else has the ability to believe and even perchance they did believe what I said that in itself is not sufficient to convert the soul

 

Paul says "the natural man recieveth not the things of God, indeed he cannot they are foolishness to him, they are spiritually discerned."

 

What then? what's the point in preaching? if it is not to convince or persuade.

 

The christian steps out in faith, preaching is a faith venture, it is one thing to preach in church where it is nice and cosy and everyone believes. But when you are sharing with people who do not believe it's a different kettle of fish.

 

I am not looking to you to be able to believe, you are [respectfully] spiritually dead, slain in trespasses and sins, that part of you which is neccesary for faith is non-functionary.

 

When I preach or give testimony or share my appeal isn't to you but to God, I am wholly reliant upon Him, me having done the foolish part which is preaching, now I need for God to go forward by His Spirit and work in the hearts of the people listening or reading.

 

Now it might surprise you to know that some people do believe, I am saved because somebody shared the gospel with me and God worked with it in my heart, even against my own reasoning.

 

God can knock the skepticism right out of your heart while you read, that's how christianity has worked down through the long centuries of history.

 

See I don't know who's gonna believe and who's not, my God is amazing, the great wisebeards of Jesu's day rejected Him but I read His message 2000 years later and the Holy Spirit zaps and I believed. I have shared those same testimonies with other people and they believed, of course you will comfort yourself that is only dull brains like me, but actually there are a lot cleverer christians on this site than me.

 

So to sum up, what is important is that we give witness, that's what Jesus said to do, we all share what we've got as best we can. But we are looking and hoping that God is going to work with us, He is able, and the great joy we have is when somebody discovers Him as we have.

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Thanks for the response Totten!

 

I have to say I enjoyed reading your view on these things :D but now I need to do a little dissecting of your post. I promise it wont hurt a bit :P

 

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I do not claim to be unique in my view about how God works, His modus operandum, but to modern christians I am unusual, that is because theology has changed to a remarkable degree in the last 150 years or so, and theology affects the way christians do evangelism. And even where christians have the same theological position that I have never-the-less they do not always follow through with their methodology.

I'm curious in how you determined this? What is it that you do differently that you feel others are not? I have always found these types of things interesting, so I would like to know more about your beliefs, if you care to share.

 

I am not specifically trying to convince Arch or anybody else of anything, I believe the human heart in it's fallen state is incapable of believing in God or anything that God does-and that includes christians who may be reborn in their hearts yet never-the-less think along the same lines and thought processes as before they were saved, including me but I am learning. :(

And this is why I like your posts so much. See you honestly don't realize that by having honest conversations with people you are planting seeds of Christianity. For you your beliefs have only brought you warmth and love, and you only wish to share it. I can see from the few posts that you have put on this site that you are a good person :D

 

It's the same as when preaching, see the difference, if I thought that you or Arch or anyone else had the capabilty of believing what I am preaching, I would appeal to you, I would make arguments along the lines of great philosophical weight or scientific data [if I were able-but I'm not :lol: ] But I do not believe that Arch or anybody else has the ability to believe and even perchance they did believe what I said that in itself is not sufficient to convert the soul

Don't sell yourself short. You can do amazing things without even realizing it. All you have to do is try. You will never know how important your words are to someone until many years down the road when someone you bump into again tells you something you said really made a difference in their life. Trust me it will make your head spin.

 

everything you say and post has the possibility of affecting someone in such a profound way. But the reverse is true. Everything you read and hear has the same ability to change your life forever.

 

Paul says "the natural man recieveth not the things of God, indeed he cannot they are foolishness to him, they are spiritually discerned."

 

What then? what's the point in preaching? if it is not to convince or persuade.

 

The christian steps out in faith, preaching is a faith venture, it is one thing to preach in church where it is nice and cosy and everyone believes. But when you are sharing with people who do not believe it's a different kettle of fish.

Preaching and conversing is all about sowing seeds. Your strength in your faith will make a difference for someone, even if that person is an Atheist or Buddhist or Christian of Muslim or Jew.

 

So be strong. Love your neighbors. If someone wants to debate you on religion, take the opportunity. You never know, what you say to that person might stick with them for years to come. Just remember to not take it personally if the other person disagrees with you.

 

 

I am not looking to you to be able to believe, you are [respectfully] spiritually dead, slain in trespasses and sins, that part of you which is neccesary for faith is non-functionary.

Remember Totten, it is best to not make assumptions about people. You might be talking to an Agnostic who just doesn't know. you might be talking to an Atheist who just can't shake the feeling that they might be wrong.

 

Now with me I've spent my time with Christianity and decided to move on. But it certainly has shaped who I am today.

 

When I preach or give testimony or share my appeal isn't to you but to God, I am wholly reliant upon Him, me having done the foolish part which is preaching, now I need for God to go forward by His Spirit and work in the hearts of the people listening or reading.

 

Now it might surprise you to know that some people do believe, I am saved because somebody shared the gospel with me and God worked with it in my heart, even against my own reasoning.

 

God can knock the skepticism right out of your heart while you read, that's how christianity has worked down through the long centuries of history.

See this paragraph just shows you are half-way there. When you preach you not only have the ability to effect others who are reading, but also effect the person you are talking to.

 

See I don't know who's gonna believe and who's not, my God is amazing, the great wisebeards of Jesu's day rejected Him but I read His message 2000 years later and the Holy Spirit zaps and I believed. I have shared those same testimonies with other people and they believed, of course you will comfort yourself that is only dull brains like me, but actually there are a lot cleverer christians on this site than me.

 

So to sum up, what is important is that we give witness, that's what Jesus said to do, we all share what we've got as best we can. But we are looking and hoping that God is going to work with us, He is able, and the great joy we have is when somebody discovers Him as we have.

40571[/snapback]

Exactly and I wish you the best with all of your endeavors! I might not agree with your religion, but I respect your choice.

 

See I told you my dissection wouldn't hurt!

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I sure am not going to side-track the forum with what might be considered by others as "particular views" that is not the purpose of this forum which I think is of priceless value.

Even for the christians and other creationist the focus must be primarily science and scientific data, and some of the others have a good handle on church and world history, I don't understand all that stuff but I am glad that they can hold the argument up that faith in God does not neccesitate an abdication of factual knowledge, God is not opposed to science He is the Author of it.

So my little contributions must neccesarily be of a different character, and since the others do work along the lines of scientific or historical data, they are going to argue their case from a dogmatic princible i.e. We are right and you [with all respect] are wrong, you do the same thing and are just as dogmatic :)

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Hey totten, sorry it's taken so long to respond. I found your post quite enlightening, and wanted to mull it over longer than usual.

 

I have shared those same testimonies with other people and they believed, of course you will comfort yourself that is only dull brains like me, but actually there are a lot cleverer christians on this site than me.

40571[/snapback]

Not at all. Of all the posts I've read I find yours and Bex the most compelling. Strangely the two of you would be the first to admit a lack of knowledge in regards to evolutionary theory and history. I don't think an in-depth understanding of sciences makes you any better at preaching :lol:

 

There's a story I heard many years ago that seemed appropriate.

 

A child asked his mother if he could have lunch in the park one day. His mother agreed and gave him a packed lunch and send him on his way.

When he got to the park he met an elderly lady, who asked him what he was doing out on his own. The two got chatting and the little boy shared his lunch with the woman.

 

When he got home his mother asked him what he'd done all day, to which he replied "Today I had lunch in the park with God, and she's a woman".

 

Upon arriving home the elderly woman's husband asked her the same question, to which she replied "Today I had lunch in the park with God, and he's a lot younger than I realised".

 

This story highlights what I believe, and that is that God exists in all of us. He is the name we give the good in us.

So when you say that God is with you, that I believe.

 

Regards,

 

Arch.

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