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PStryder

Definitions - The Words We Use Matter.

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No.. that's OK.. I'm quite happy as it is. But thanks anyway.

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What do you mean I didn't listen to you? I admitted there are some things (like what kind of music you like) that cannot be explained 100% through science. But it can say SOMETHING about it. While I may not be able to do the kind of experiment you imply, I can use science to derive some kind of empirical information and factor that into my decision processes, opinions, and beliefs.

 

 

The basic issue is that we disagree on what is or is not subject to scientific investigation. Just because you can't think of a way to empirically test something does not mean that there is no way.

 

It may just be a failure of your imagination.

 

I prefer to AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE rely on empirical methods to form my beliefs, opinions and worldviews.

 

At NO POINT have I stated that science is the ONLY way to find truth. I have made the comment that I think it is the BEST way, based on it's proven record.

 

What part of what I am saying don't you understand?

 

 

When did I say that I cannot be mistaken about anything?

 

When have I said that my personal opinions are unquestionably correct? Based on what I know to be fact, I think my opinions are MOST LIKELY correct, but I am willing to revise them as new data becomes available.

 

Creationism, however, is 100% wrong. You reject data and evidence that demonstrates this. I can't dfo anything about that, and I am not going to waste my time presenting evidence you will rejcet. (You've rejected it once already, else you would not be a creationist.)

 

 

Sigh... By its very NATURE your opinions cannot be assessed by the scientific method.. This is a demonstration of your inability to understand the inherent limitations of science... I assume you haven't studied science at a tertiary level since they would have told you all this.

 

The fact that you think opinions cannot be assessed by the scientific method is a very very sad circumstance.

 

I challenge you to ask any scientist if he / she can test your opinions by the scientific method.

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Sigh... By its very NATURE your opinions cannot be assessed by the scientific method.. This is a demonstration of your inability to understand the inherent limitations of science... I assume you haven't studied science at a tertiary level since they would have told you all this.

 

The fact that you think opinions cannot be assessed by the scientific method is a very very sad circumstance.

 

I challenge you to ask any scientist if he / she can test your opinions by the scientific method.

 

Are you aware I know several Ph. D. scientists currently doing research on a wide variety of subjects? My wife is a PH. D. inorganic nano-chemist doing research on aerogels.

 

Not bragging, just saying I can actually carry out this challenge. And seeing as I associate with these people and discuss their work with them, I'm pretty sure what they would say. You won't think I did the experiment honestly though.

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Are you aware I know several Ph. D. scientists currently doing research on a wide variety of subjects? My wife is a PH. D. inorganic nano-chemist doing research on aerogels.

 

Not bragging, just saying I can actually carry out this challenge. And seeing as I associate with these people and discuss their work with them, I'm pretty sure what they would say. You won't think I did the experiment honestly though.

 

I know many Ph.D scientists too, so your point here is moot, (unless you're trying to make an argument to authority... another logical fallacy).

 

Go ask them if they can perform an experiment to determine if your opinions are correct. Also ask them for the experiments they will carry out.

 

Also consider the fact that you've already admitted that moral and aesthetic judgements cannot be accessed by science, opinions are another one of these.

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I know many Ph.D scientists too, so your point here is moot, (unless you're trying to make an argument to authority... another logical fallacy).

 

Go ask them if they can perform an experiment to determine if your opinions are correct. Also ask them for the experiments they will carry out.

 

Also consider the fact that you've already admitted that moral and aesthetic judgements cannot be accessed by science, opinions are another one of these.

 

 

No experiment forthcoming... Can I assume I was correct and opinions cannot be tested via the scientific method? ;)

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No experiment forthcoming... Can I assume I was correct and opinions cannot be tested via the scientific method? wink.png

 

No, the only assumption you can validly and logically make is that I have not reported back any findings I may or may not have to you.

 

But then, you are a clueless freaking moron who has such a flawed misunderstanding of the nature of reality and how to do science that talking to you about anything even remotely scientific causes me physical pain.

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No, the only assumption you can validly and logically make is that I have not reported back any findings I may or may not have to you.

 

But then, you are a clueless freaking moron who has such a flawed misunderstanding of the nature of reality and how to do science that talking to you about anything even remotely scientific causes me physical pain.

 

 

"The words we use matter"?

 

What's wrong Stryder, can't accept what evolution has wrought? So evo does not control us? No free moral agency? Sure seems like we have it to me. Are you just asserting your fitness. Somehow, I think we will survive without you. Have no fear natural selection will ...

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No, the only assumption you can validly and logically make is that I have not reported back any findings I may or may not have to you.

 

But then, you are a clueless freaking moron who has such a flawed misunderstanding of the nature of reality and how to do science that talking to you about anything even remotely scientific causes me physical pain.

 

If you did have findings I am quite sure you would have reported them, and thus relieved yourself of looking like a fool.

 

So you still wish to claim that opinions can be scientifically verified by experiment? Despite the fact that you admitted that logic and personal preferences (eg: aesthetics), cannot be scientifically verified. I already told you opinions are like these things, add in the fact that opinions are not physical objects that cannot be measured ensures that you're merely being stubborn, rather than anything else you claim or think you are doing.

 

Why is it atheists think insults are a valid debate "tactic"? It only serves to demonstrate how bankrupt your position is when you resort to such measures which can be seen as "scraping the bottom of the barrel".

 

 

This all goes to underline the fact, (as I said), nobody uses opinions as evidence of anything. Evidence is evidence and opinions (interpretations about the evidence) are opinions.

 

When data demonstrates an interpretation is correct it is no longer an opinion.

 

Figured this would help you understand

 

o·pin·ion (schwa.gif-pibreve.gifnprime.gifyschwa.gifn)

n.
1. A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof: "The world is not run by thought, nor by imagination, but by opinion" (Elizabeth Drew).
2. A judgment based on special knowledge and given by an expert: a medical opinion.
3. A judgment or estimation of the merit of a person or thing: has a low opinion of braggarts.
4. The prevailing view: public opinion.
5. Law A formal statement by a court or other adjudicative body of the legal reasons and principles for the conclusions of the court.
Definition of OPINION
1
a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter
b : approval, esteem
2
a : belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge
b : a generally held view
3
a : a formal expression of judgment or advice by an expert

b : the formal expression (as by a judge, court, or referee) of the legal reasons and principles upon which a legal decision is based

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion

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No experiment forthcoming... Can I assume I was correct and opinions cannot be tested via the scientific method? wink.png

 

I haven't followed the greater context of how things got to this is this topic, but I'll put something in anyway.

 

Are you saying that (for example) considerations of the effect of a 6 mile asteroid's impact on the Earth is not science unless we replicate it in the lab? I think we can do a lot of study of cause and effects without totally reproducing the event.

 

In geology, many of the processes can be replicated in the lab. Or observed currently happening out there in the real world. Do we need to create a new Earth from "scratch" for geology to be a science?

 

Moose

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Moose did you read this quote from PStryder?

But then, you are a clueless freaking moron who has such a flawed misunderstanding of the nature of reality and how to do science that talking to you about anything even remotely scientific causes me physical pain.

Science is done by human beings.

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I haven't followed the greater context of how things got to this is this topic, but I'll put something in anyway.

 

Are you saying that (for example) considerations of the effect of a 6 mile asteroid's impact on the Earth is not science unless we replicate it in the lab? I think we can do a lot of study of cause and effects without totally reproducing the event.

 

In geology, many of the processes can be replicated in the lab. Or observed currently happening out there in the real world. Do we need to create a new Earth from "scratch" for geology to be a science?

 

Moose

Perhaps reading the greater context would have helped.

 

Pstryder claimed that his opinions are verified by the scientific method. A cursory look at the definition of opinion should demonstrate how wrong he is.

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Moose are you agreeing with PStryder?

 

Well, I wouldn't go nearly that far. Maybe "amused nausea".

 

I do seem to recall finding that Gilbo at least sometimes has trouble understanding the definitions he finds in his dictionary.

 

Why, do you agree with PStryder?

 

Moose

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Moose,

This guy has demonstrate a lot of hostility for people that disagree with him.

 

 

 

There is no need among civilized folks to cast aspersions as to another's cognitive abilitirs. because we disagree with what "he" (in this case PStryder_ wants to sell us.

 

We respect each other (you and I) even though we have some fifferent beliefs, Take my position on God. I personally do not feel qualified to say who can or can not exist in this vast universe. So, my opinion is that claiming to be an atheist is unbelievably arrogant. Who has left the solar system looking for God?

 

This guy not only holds the opinion that there is no God but, is also hostile to the idea of God. I accept the idea that I created the idea that there is a God from my personal experiences. I am responsible for my belief in God. This guy seems to be of a different ilk. He does not think his opinion is an opinion but that we all mus agree with his views or we are morons.

 

The same evidence an evo scientist uses to prove evo, I use ri prove God Face it no one has seen life come from the not living and no one has observed life evolve from molecules to man. So we have opinions.

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This guy seems to be of a different ilk. He does not think his opinion is an opinion but that we all mus agree with his views or we are morons.

 

 

Can't agree more, hence why I am trying to get him to understand that opinions are fallible and so he cannot use his opinions as evidence of anything.

 

 

 

 

I do seem to recall finding that Gilbo at least sometimes has trouble understanding the definitions he finds in his dictionary.

 

 

Perhaps you can support that claim with my post #33 and how I've (apparently) misunderstood the definition of opinion, as I gave two definitions found from official dictionaries. Additionally I gave you the bare minimum of context in that PStryder believes that his opinons can be counted as evidence since they are tested by the scientific method.

 

Perhaps consider the defitinions I gave

 

"A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof:"

 

 

"a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter"

 

Its quite clear from these definitions that the scientific method cannot be utilised since an opinion is simply a subjective assessment of ones own interpretation of the data... Interpretations, (like aesthetics which PStryder finally admitted cannot be scientifically verified), are not applicable to the scientific method. I asked him for a demonstration / evidence of an experiment which can assess ones own opinions and he has thus far failed to give such a thing.

 

 

Additionally its not my dictionary its an online dictionary, your claiming it's mine is an attempt to imply that I do not use official dictionaries... Perhaps you don't read my posts that well, I always give the link to any source I cite for transparency and people can double check my sources.... If you really want to make such a fuss do so towards Mr Aron Ra since he's trying to create his own dictionary.

 

If you want to be objective and not hold double standards you can chastise Mr Aron Ra for his blatant attempts at misrepresentation here.

 

http://freethoughtblogs.com/aronra/2012/09/15/offerings-to-the-atheist-dictionary/

 

When I asked him why he needed to redefine these words, he claimed it was because the dictionary gets it wrong, yet when I ask on what authority does he claim his definitions to be correct he claims that he uses the dictionary to ensure they are correct, I hope you can see the idiocy there ;)

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Seriously. I am not using my opinions as evidence.

 

My opinions are BASED on the evidence.

 

I like to do that to make sure my opinions comport with reality. But that concept seems difficult for gilbo to understand, since he's continually claiming that I consider my opinions to be evidence.

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Of course opinions can be incorrect since they are subjective and are our own summations of what WE deem logical, as I told you what we think is logical is subjective and therefore is at risk of being wrong / biased... (Again you should have already known my answer based on what I have told you previously).

 

 

But they can be checked for accuracy. Many opinions have been checked and found to be accurate and useful to accept. Those I have co-opted as my own opinions. Any opinions I generate independently I then check against reality and the proven accurate opinions available to me.

 

This gives me a world view based almost exclusively on opinions that have been tested against reality and found accurate. Thus I attempt to know as many things as possible as opposed to believing things.

 

 

When you "test" your opinions you realise that you are doing so subjectively meaning that it doesn't negate the problem.... This is why nobody sane takes opinions as evidence for anything.

 

Its ironic also that you keep refering to testing your claims / opinions yet continually refuse to give the evidence of such in other threads... How can you test something when you have no evidence to compare? Or is your definition of "test" in this circumstance merely your own subjective prognosis on what you deem "logical"... So essentially its your opinion that your opinions are logical and factual... Such a thing has no source of verification other than your opinion which is subjective... Essentially you are displaying the attributes of a god complex.

 

 

 

By test I mean compare against reality using the scientific method.

 

 

 

 

Again I stress that you cannot test your opinions / interpretations using the scientific method.... Will you concede this? Despite ardently claiming that you know many people who hold a PhD and can therefore fulfill my challenge to demonstrate HOW an opinion / interpretation of the evidence is assessed by the scientific method... Yet refusing to give the evidence of such.. Atheists do this quite often, overstate their case but when evidence is asked for they simply refuse and then claim its not required (or some other lame excuse); and they claim to be more "rational"?

 

Consider the fact I have told you that an opinion / interpretation is not a physical thing (so to you it actually shouldn't exist since you have claimed that nothing exists outside of nature, despite having no way to support that bald assertion). Thus as a non-physical thing you have no means to test it via the scientific method since the scientific method requires empirical experimentation which you cannot do to a non-physical thing. Which is why, (as I already told you before), opinions / interpretations are much like aesthetic judgements in that they are an immaterial subjective assessment of something...

 

Subjective = Personal bias + Cannot test = Cannot rely on as "accurate"

 

 

 

PS: The very fact that things like opinions, numbers, laws of logic, laws of physics and other such non-physical things exist debunks materialism, lest you can claim to go to the store and get a kilo of number seven.

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