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Marian

Suggested Reading?

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Genetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome

 

This is the best book I've read in the last year or so on the origins debate. If you like genetics, you won't be dissapointed! Click the link for more info.

 

Fred

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I'll second this one. Dr. Sanford's a splendid teacher, and much of the book is very easy to understand.

 

Werner Gitt's In the beginning was Information is also top-notch; but I had to take my time in a few places.

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I just got "The Blind Watchmaker" by Richard Dawkins the other day, and just started reading it. It seems really good so far. There are a few other books I've picked up as well which were suggested by various friends.

 

I'm curious what other books people here would recommend for reading, regarding either evolution or intelligent design. :D

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Marian,

 

I have just finished reading the new book by Dr. Jonathan Wells entitled "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Darwinism and Intelligent Design." Very interesting reading. I enjoyed the book. It covered a wide variety of issues in the creation/evolution debate: fossil record, Darwin's strongest evidence, molecular phylogeny, missing link, irreducible complexity, etc.

 

The book does clearly define what ID is and why it is not creationism. I am a young earth creationist not an IDer and after reading this book I can say that has not changed. Altough I do agree with most of the ID science that does not make me an IDer. Read the book and you will see why I have said this.

 

I would recommend this book to anyone who wants to know what the ID movement is all about. I got my copy from http://www.arn.arg/.

 

Bob Barclay

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Guest George R

Two Recent Books I must rave about.

 

I liked them so much I paid full price. (usually I wait for bargoons at the remainders pile)

 

 

1) "Dissent over Descent" Steve Fuller A++

 

A secular humanist takes on and exposes the naturalist bias in Darwinism.

 

So cool. So very readable even though it jumps around to make its connections between science and philosophy

 

Not a christian book ... but a defender of the ID Creationists and even defender of Biblical literalism's role in the advance of science ... from an unexpected source.

 

2) "Reinventing Gravity" John W Moffat

 

The first readable book on the history of science's struggle with gravity.

 

A keeper for your bookshelf. Very readable for a change.

 

I finally understand string theory ... and reject it,

 

Bonus: This guy has a new gravity theory that doesnt need dark matter, strings, superstrings, branes, black holes multiverses, or a singularity at time=0.

 

Yes ... he is very much a secular humanist but that doesnt intrude too often on his science.

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"The School Of Christ" by Austin T. Sparks.

 

One of the best spritual books you can find anywhere.It's a small book but it's effect and revelation is tremendous.

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The Irrational Atheist by Vox Day. You can download the ebook version of it for free HERE.

 

Vox makes Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens etc. look incredibly stupid. You'll never lose a 'religion is evil!' debate again after reading this book - guaranteed.

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Guest shpongle

Evolution by Douglas Futuyma. It's basically a college-level textbook on the topic and reveals more depth and breadth about the evolution than 99.9% of people are aware of. Highly recommended for anyone who wants to discuss evolution, particularly those who argue against it. It's especially useful in providing background knowledge to be able to digest scientific papers on the subject.

 

What Evolution Is by Ernst Mayr. Not nearly as heavy (in size or content) as Futuyma's book, but still a solid overview of evolutionary theory. A bit technical in places, but a good read. Probably a good precursor to reading the Futuyma textbook.

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Here are some of my favorites this year.

 

Descartes' Bones: A Skeletal History of the Conflict between Faith and Reason. By Russell Shorto

A fascinating new book exploring how Descartes introduction of dualism resulted in the separation of science and religion. The book does not take sides on the issue of faith or evolution. However, it does give a great historical perspective on how and why science and religion became divided.

Genesis: The Scientific Quest for Life's Origins, By Robert Hazen

Hazen is a highly regarded researcher at the Carnegie Institute and has published extensively on life’s origins. He is a wonderful writer and this is a very accessible book. Although parts probably need a little understanding of biochemistry, he has done a magnificent job providing a survey of the wide array of work in this field. (http://hazen.gl.ciw.edu/research/origins)

 

Gorgon: The Monsters That Ruled the Planet Before Dinosaurs and How They Died in the Greatest Catastrophe in Earth's History By Peter Ward

This book is great opportunity to see how a paleontologist goes about his work. This is written more like a travelogue than a science book, but I highly recommend it if you want to see all the hard work that goes on in a paleontological ‘dig’ including the dating of a site. The book is also a great introduction to the great Permian extinction that resulted in the death of over 95% of all the species on the planet 250 million years ago. This is very very readable. Highly recommended.

 

When Life Nearly Died: The Greatest Mass Extinction of All Time. By Michael Benton

Like Gorgon, this is another book about the great Permian extinction. This covers a lot of the history of our scientific knowledge of extinction events and then focuses on the causes and details of the greatest threat that life on our planet has faced.

The Jesuit and the Skull: Teilhard de Chardin, Evolution, and the Search for Peking Man. by Amir Aczel

A Jesuit priest played a large role in the discovery of the 500,000 year old skeletons of “Peking Manâ€ÂÂ. This a book on these discoveries and how the Church struggled with these findings. Interesting perspective on the relationship between the Vatican and anthropology.

 

The Man Who Found Time: James Hutton and the Discovery of Earth's Antiquity.

By Jack Repcheck

A short but excellent biography of James Hutton. He is often considered the father of modern geology. In the late 1700’s, Hutton took a close look at the rocks and soil in the world around him and explained why the alternating layers (sedimentary, volcanic intrusions etc) could not be the result of world wide flood. His work led to our understanding of the antiquity of the earth and served as the basis of Charles Lyells theories of geology.

 

Your Inner Fish: A Journey into the 3.5-Billion-Year History of the Human Body. By Neil Shubin

Shubin is famous for his discovery of Tiktaalik roseae, (one of the transitional fish to tetrapod species). This is a ‘popular’ book intended for the general audience about his discoveries and the evolution of the human form. Highly recommended.

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I just got "The Blind Watchmaker" by Richard Dawkins the other day, and just started reading it. It seems really good so far. There are a few other books I've picked up as well which were suggested by various friends.

 

I'm curious what other books people here would recommend for reading, regarding either evolution or intelligent design. :)

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Starlight and Time

D. Russell Humphreys. 1994. Master Books:

 

This is an informative book with thought provoking theories, explaining the existence of "old" starlight in a young universe. This may be provocative to some, but others may see and find agreement with Humphreys. Then again, others will simply hate on him for positing such nonsense! Whether you agree with him or not, Humphries makes a compelling case here.

 

God And The Astronomers

(1978), W. W. Norton & Company

Dr. Robert Jastrow

 

This is an excellent read just for the closing remark:

 

"For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountain of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

 

 

I haven’t found much of the writings by Dawkins that I’ve liked, and “The Blind Watchmaker” didn’t disappoint.

 

The arguments are far less than compelling than they should have been, as they stumbled from complex biological structures to the mutation rate of DNA. This book (and ultimately Dawkins) side steps several hurdles that oppose the theory of evolution (i.e. complex organs like the eyeball appearing 'all at once', 'gaps' in the fossil record, species evolution, etc.). It also negates any credibility it may have had by assuming that we got to DNA + RNA + proteins in using these assumption”:

 

"we shall keep in mind the fact that these very same ingredients, at least in some rudimentary form, must have arisen spontaneously on the early Earth, otherwise cumulative selection, and therefore life, would never have got started in the first place." Quote from page 128

 

Dawkins book is replete with presuppositions, assumptions and innuendoes.

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I recently read "Demon haunted World" by Carl Sagan, and it was a very good look at the way that science wotks.

 

Also, the old classic- "The Origin of the Species" by Charles Darwin

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I've always found Sagan a capable author, especially “Broca's Brain: Reflections on the Romance of Science.”, and I found the passion in his works that could rival any theist’s (it kind of makes you wonder about his religion)

 

It strikes me as odd that every one either forgets to mention, or wants to forget that the second half of the title to "The Origin of the Species" is “or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life” and the Eugenics movement it spurred.

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Decoding the Universe by Charles Seife

 

Great book by an evolutionist who openly admits some "distubing" discoveries concerning information and thermodynamics.

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I've heard of him, and will have to check that out....

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I just read "The Dawkins Delusion" - Alister McGrath . It's a great companion peice to the God Delusion by Dawkins....

 

 

 

It's no wonder Michael Ruse said; "The God Delusion makes me embarrassed to be an atheist".....

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The Spear Of Destiny

Trevor Ravenscroft

 

De skudd I must ask you have YOU written any books lately? I've always found the way you words things amazing. It is always understandable and you make very valid point very elegantly.

 

I was reading the National Geographic today and in the first two paragraphs of the article about Darwin the article is already falling apart. They forgot to add that funny little favored races part about Darwins book when naming it.

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http://www.creationism.org/books/CooperAfterFlood/index.htm

 

Must apologize for failing to post this earlier. After the Flood is unique. I bought extra copies for any friends & family members who'd read it. That link is to a free online version. I urge everyone to check it out.

 

The book starts slow, but things pick up after a couple of chapters. Turns out the Hebrews aren't the only people tracing their history back to Noah's children after all! This book has information you-know-who absolutely does not want you to know.

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I would suggest........ that it may be of some small interest to those who would quote (or heaven forbid, even misquote) from the works of Charles Darwin that an online collection of his works may be found at this link here:

 

http://darwin-online.org.uk/

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Another book I found highly interesting:

 

“I Don’t Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist”

 

Norman Geisler and Frank Tuerk

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Another book I found highly interesting:

 

“I Don’t Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheistâ€ÂÂ

 

Norman Geisler and Frank Tuerk

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Well if you think about it, being an atheist is an oxymoron statement. For how can you be against something you claim does not exist?

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"Genetic Entropy & The Mystery of the Genome", John C. Sanford:

Great book! Shows why why the Primary Axiom (Mutation+natural selection=evolution) is false.

 

"Science vs. Evolution" (or The Evolution Handbook, which is a shorter version), Vance Ferrell.

Very comprehensive and easy to read. Covers a great number of topics, and tries to show why the Evolution theory is wrong.

 

"Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study", John Woodmorappe.

About how the ark was a possible project.

 

"Buried Alive", Jack Cuozzo

Why the Neanderthals fit into the Young Earth view, and not the ThoE.

 

"Secrets of the Ica Stones and Nazca Lines", Dennis Swift

Shows that ancient people saw dinosaurs alive.

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Well I find myself on a ‘creation vs evolution’ forum discussion looking at recommended books, and what do I find? I find people recommending books by Lee Strobel, Jonathan Wells, Ken Ham, Geoffrey Simmons, Tom Sutcliff, Vance Ferrell, Jack Cuozzo, Norman Geisler, Frank Turek, and various others, many of whom I’ve never heard of.

What do all of these people have in common? Well not a single one of them is a scientist (I include Wells in this as despite his PhD he does not work at any scientific research institution and if he has ever published any peer-reviewed work it was a long time ago and it didn’t provide support for his nonsensical claims). If I want to learn about history I would go to a historian, if I want to know about law I go to a lawyer, and if I want to know about science I go to a scientist. Why do creationists insist on this completely irresponsible method of reading any old hack irrespective of what their qualifications are, as long as the work agrees with their preconceived ideas? There are plenty of good scientists who have published books explaining evolution, if only you would read what they have to say. If you want to know about evolution, try reading books by people who actually work in the subject and study it, not unqualified Christian apologists.

The only person that would be considered a scientist, and whose work was actually taken slightly seriously, of those you have mentioned, would be Michael Behe, and even he accepts common descent. His claim about irreducible complexity is not accepted by the rest of the scientific community, and even the rest of his department at Lehigh have distanced themselves from his views.

If you want to know about the fossil record read Evolution: What The Fossils Say and Why it Really Matters by Donald Prothero. He has been working in palaeontology for 30 years and so he has handled and personally worked with the fossils he talks about. Don’t read some garbage by Geoffrey Simmons who is a doctor for crying out loud.

Other books by respected scientists that I would recommend are; The Making of the Fittest by Sean Carroll, Why Evolution is True by Jerry Coyne, and Your Inner Fish by Neil Shubin. These are all well respected scientists who work at respected institutions and represent the scientific consensus.

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What do all of these people have in common? Well not a single one of them is a scientist (I include Wells in this as despite his PhD he does not work at any scientific research institution and if he has ever published any peer-reviewed work it was a long time ago and it didn’t provide support for his nonsensical claims). If I want to learn about history I would go to a historian, if I want to know about law I go to a lawyer, and if I want to know about science I go to a scientist. Why do creationists insist on this completely irresponsible method of reading any old hack irrespective of what their qualifications are, as long as the work agrees with their preconceived ideas? There are plenty of good scientists who have published books explaining evolution, if only you would read what they have to say. If you want to know about evolution, try reading books by people who actually work in the subject and study it, not unqualified Christian apologists.

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Hmmmm, I just did a quick perusal of this thread and saw more than seven or eight (non-evolutionist) scientists publications being described. You may want to actually look into the thread, and not just skim over it. I might suggest you read “Why is a Fly Not a Horse?” by Dr. Giuseppe Sermonti for a start.

 

You assertion that “not a single one of them is a scientist”, is baseless, and what some might consider an out-and-out lie. Be that as it may, Darwin, himself wasn’t a scientist (was without a degree in any scientific discipline) when he wrote “Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life”. Therefore, based upon your logic, he should be considered “any old hack” , and his whole book is chock full of “nonsensical claims”.

 

I think you’ll find that many of us have done extensive reading of book by evolutheists, and have found them wanting on both science and logic…

 

But, if you have a problem with all that, here's a bunch of scientists you can argue with:

http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/fi...download&id=660

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Refuting Evolution - Johnathan Sarfati

 

Refuting Evolution 2 - Johnathan Sarfati

 

Creation Scientists Answer Their Critics - Duane Gish

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Darwin, himself wasn’t a scientist (was without a degree in any scientific discipline) when he wrote “Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Lifeâ€ÂÂ. Therefore, based upon your logic, he should be considered “any old hack†, and his whole book is chock full of “nonsensical claimsâ€ÂÂ.

 

Science is something you DO, and not just a title you can buy from an unacredited university (Mr H*vind??). Charles Darwin spent a lifetime making observations, collecting evidence, making scientific predictions and then testing them. He wrote and published academic papers which were peer reviewed and publically debated.

 

It's the process of following the scientific method makes you a scientist and nothing else (which incidently is why creationism is not science). Besides he could hardly have gone to "University" and studied evolutionary science could he? :)

 

Incidently, I've asked this before, but why does Kent H*vind's name get the "o" asterixed out? Is his name rally considered blastphemous?

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Incidently, I've asked this before, but why does Kent H*vind's name get the "o" asterixed out? Is his name rally considered blastphemous?

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No, it's just that atheists have as hard a time refuting his points as they do pronouncing his name. Therefore we thought we'd make it easier on them :huh:

 

 

 

I'm just kidding pdw, I have no idea why that happens. :)

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This book is brand new.

 

Signature of the cell.

 

A great book. I was worried because if you read a typical Stephen Meyer paper it is well written by a very difficult read.

 

However, this book is an easy read. He spends time and explains concepts and builds to conclusions gradually. In other words it was written to a lay person. His thesis is that information proves design. Dr. Meyer has been researching this thesis since the early 80's. In other words this is his life's work and it shows.

 

It is a great book and I highly recommend it.

 

Bruce

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The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism

~ Michael J. Behe

 

Truly amazing book, it's a must-read!

 

"Until the past decade and the genomics revolution, Darwin's theory rested on indirect evidence and reasonable speculation. Now, however, we have begun to scratch the surface of direct evidence, of which this book offers the best possible treatment. Though many critics won't want to admit it, The Edge of Evolution is very balanced, careful, and devastating. A tremendously important book."

 

-- Dr. Philip Skell, Evan Pugh Professor of Chemistry, Emeritus, at Pennsylvania State University, and member of the National Academy of Sciences

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