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mike the wiz

Mike The Wiz From Evc

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In fact the blog link can't be removed, it must be too old. This is the first time I have come back to this thread, it was only a welcoming thread, I thought it was finished with as a thread.

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Everything you have said is standard American evangelical Christian dogma. I have been every place you just went and am completely familiar with the arguments except for this one. You cannot accept that I’m one of you. That would pop your balloon. So, you concoct a story that I was never “saved”. I hate to break it to you. None of us were ever saved. But I thought I was saved. For twenty-five years, I went to church and I sent my kids to Sunday school. I personally led my son through the salvation prayer. I was filled with the Holy Ghost and prayed in tongues. I taught Sunday school for a short time. I played flugel horn in the special Christmas services. My wife ran the sound board for a time. I thought I was “saved”. And I hear this often in one flavor or another. I was supposedly at the wrong church because otherwise, I wouldn’t be, as you put it, “misled”. But that argument really doesn’t work for me. It’s not as if I went to one bum church. I went to at least five totally separate churches for an extended period of time. Not every church believed in healing, raising from the dead (and I’m not exaggerating) or speaking in tongues. However, there was a common core that I became completely familiar with.


I recall as a young married Christian man having Leo and Jennifer Schwindt over to visit. My wife and I really made a connection with this couple and were excited to be spending time with them. In a side conversation, Leo mentioned something about people who believed in evolution, rather disparagingly. I equivocated and he goes, "You don't believe in evolution, do you?" I admitted, "Well, kinda'". I had suppressed that belief and didn't consider it essential to my salvation. So, I hadn't worried about it. Leo responds, "Scott, you better be careful!"

It wasn't explicitly spoken. But the reason I should be careful was clear. I could go to hell if I didn't watch out. Otherwise, what would "careful" mean?


Now you cannot have it both ways. I know we were taught this way. But it’s not correct. You cannot say that God is the designer of the universe and he is the creator of the universe and then absolve him of responsibility. Some people say I cannot be unsaved. So let’s use some Joe Schmoe off the street who was never saved. If he ends up in hell, God’s not going to be wondering, “Gee, I wonder how Joe ended up there.” To say that God is the creator/designer of the universe means that God did it. If Joe is being burned to eternity, then God is the one who did it. But the American church will say as you have, “No, Joe did it to himself. He is only getting his just reward.”


You said, “He can only give correct justice, and that justice is predicated on His own omniscience.” So I understand. Whatever God does is right because he is so much smarter than us. Am I putting words in your mouth? Cause that seems to be what you are saying.


And I really do understand when you say that you don’t talk about hell much and it’s not a large part of the teaching, “As a side-note, I never bring up the issue of, ‘hell’ really.” I too underplayed hell. And my thirty-one year old son says the same thing. It’s clear to everyone. Hell doesn’t sell. Forgiveness sells. Many if not most try to distance themselves from what the bible says.

Matthew 10:28King James Version (KJV)

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mark 9:43-49King James Version (KJV)

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

2 Peter 2:4King James Version (KJV)

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Matthew 5:22King James Version (KJV)

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 18:8King James Version (KJV)

8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Matthew 8:12King James Version (KJV)

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13King James Version (KJV)

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


I’m sorry, the bible supports my position. The Christian god is the celestial madman and torturer.


I challenged my son and he was totally ok with God doing to the unsaved whatever he wanted. I thought to myself, “Did I actually raise this person?”


It’s hard to nail down what the American evangelicals really believe because they don’t believe the bible. They pick and choose only what supports their positions. I know I’m generalizing. But, after thirty years in the church, I am convinced.


No, I do not believe God is a madman-torturer. After contemplating the biblical version of God, the only logical alternative was that the Christian account of God is false. I’ll restate this position.


If God is good, then the biblical God must be false.


Here’s another area where I think you are patently wrong.


…you are misled to believe that you as a person could influence a person's eternal future. You can't, the individual, all individuals, are created in God's image and ultimately make a freewill decision to either reject God or seek Him…


You didn’t quote a biblical verse, but I think this is standard dogma. Suppose I take my hunting knife to the grocery store and find a fifteen year old girl. She’s denied Christ. Because I have a time machine, I know that she will accept Christ when she’s twenty-three. But I slit her throat and I really do it up good and she dies. Well then I did influence her. She died, never having accepted Christ. According to the biblical scripture, she’s going to the place where there will be “be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (This could be a very good basis against capital punishment for those who really believe in heaven and hell. Anyone who sends another to hell should also go there.)


Sure, you can play all sorts of games and say that God would not hold her accountable because he knew she would have eventually accepted Christ. But I don’t see such mental gymnastics that could be supported by the bible. Sure, you could say I just did a “straw man”. But I’m intending to address what I think would be a typical American evangelical response.


But suppose I accept your supposition that I could never influence a person. This flies in the face of another position you hold. But I’ll get to that.


The truth is, nobody WANTS an atheist to "go to hell" unless they have some very severe hate-issues, which makes it highly likely they are not Christian at all to begin with.


This is impossible. Nobody could “want” to go to hell unless they were (1) insane. In that case, such a person is not of sound mind and therefore cannot be held accountable. (2) would apply to me. I would want to go to hell if my daughter was there so that she would not suffer alone. But even in that case, the idea of “want” goes beyond your use of the word.


A third read of this shows I misread your post. Ok, you’re not saying somebody wants to go to hell. ‘got it. But let’s stay with that for a moment. Some defenders of creation/Intelligent Design say that scientists want to show that evolution is true so that they can remain in their sin and flout God’s authority. Implicit in this is that these people want to go to hell. Listen, if hell exists, my science and my evolution isn’t going to get me into this. And scientists are not dumb. If they think hell exists, they’re going to do whatever they can to stay out of it!


Let’s return to the idea we can never influence a person.

You can't, the individual, all individuals, are created in God's image and ultimately make a freewill decision to either reject God or seek Him.


This is not a coherent statement. As far as I can tell, you are implying that we have no control over our decisions and cannot be convinced by another. This seems to ripple back to the passage that goes something like, “I knew you in the womb”. It’s got a tinge of predestination. So if individuals are predestined, then they cannot make a change to their decision process that is counter to that which God had envisioned at the time he created them. And that makes sense. But this requires the causal chain to be broken. I cannot convince my neighbor of anything because causality has been defeated by predestination. Here’s the problem. If that is true, there is no free will. Again, yours is an incoherent statement. But that does not make it completely false. It just means the two clauses are inconsistent.


I am not going to expect you to follow up on this. I’m certain you won’t. Nobody ever does. But I supply anyways out of an irrational need to share.

Prof. Shelly Kagan Philosophy of Death

Human Behavioral Biology (Robert Sapolsky) 25 lectures John Searle Philosophy of Mind - Lecture

It very well could be that we do not have freedom of the will. If it is the case, that we have no free will, we should still be locking people up to keep the good people safe. However, we should not be killing anybody and nobody should be going to hell, not even Hitler.


It’s not something we know and maybe we can never know it. However, it is established that there is a center of the brain responsible for empathy. If that portion of the brain is malformed prior to birth of damaged later and the individual is subjected to abuse as a child, there is a high likelihood that person will be a killer or even a serial killer. This is established in the scientific literature. Here’s an example where a “bum brain” will get you into trouble. You can read this or listen to it: NPR: A Neuroscientist Uncovers A Dark Secret.


That is an example. It doesn’t establish the general case that we do not have free will. But if you study the literature I provide, you will be able to see that a strong case exists for the premise that we do not have one. There are lots of angels on this and we may never truly know.


So yes, maybe I can neither save nor destroy my neighbor with my arguments. It may be that this person does not have free will because she is constrained with the causality of the grey matter of her brain and the underlying physics. It may be that God created her in such a way that she cannot accept Christ. Either way, your idea of free will is shot and God is punishing a being who has no control of her actions.


Otherwise, you must accept the idea that you indeed can cause a person to be saved or unsaved with your words. Even if there is a possibility that maybe one can cause another to be saved, then that would be what you would have to do night and day until you die. The possibility of anyone not being saved and the guilt you would rightly feel would all be too great. Any other course of action would be immoral. If you do not do everything in your power and someone goes to hell because of it, then you would be responsible. I suppose that would mean that you sinned. Will grace cover you allowing somebody to go to hell?


Luke 17:2King James Version (KJV)

2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.


‘just realized. This verse counters your claim that we cannot have a causal relationship with another human being. Why would it be better for a man to have a millstone hung about his neck if he could not influence another to be offended or to stumble?


Like I said. It’s quite a burden to bear. I am relieved it’s not true. Thank-you for sharing.


Regarding the link, the only fair thing is to allow me to put mine up. I’m not making any money off it. Personally, I don’t know why people on your site wouldn’t like reviewing it and tearing it to shreds anyhow.

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Svigil, writing a book isn't going to mean you have stated anything that I have not heard a hundred times over.




Svigil: I’m sorry, the bible supports my position. The Christian god is the celestial madman and torturer.


what you fail to see is that if the bible is your position, because of what the bible says about God, God can't be that person. THE BIBLE says, "God is light, and in Him is no darkness whatsoever".


As Christians, we believe the bible is inerrant, which means we believe it is from God. Logically that means that we believe on a spiritual level, there are no contradictions in it. Logically if it says something about God, then if we take it as inerrant, we have to take what it says about God as true, so then any event in the bible that leads us to think God is not good, would mean our limited human-reason was at play.


You have made the common logical error of believing that if God does something violent, that it follows that He is a madman/torturer. But it has been shown that this is a non-sequitur, because an executioner can do something violent, and it doesn't follow that they are evil madmen.


In the same way, when God killed all of those people in the Flood, He done it out of His own justice. He chooses the punishment for sin, out of His great omniscience. To question God is ultimately the action of a doubter, the fact your friend could prick you so easily and you nearly bled to death, spiritually, speaks volumes of a shallow head-Christianity you were likely partaking of. You will find many so called Christians all over the world, that are ultimately atheists without realizing it. They usually come in the form of theistic evolutionists.




Svigil: Everything you have said is standard American evangelical Christian dogma. I have been every place you just went and am completely familiar with the arguments except for this one. You cannot accept that I’m one of you. That would pop your balloon. So, you concoct a story that I was never “saved”.


You may have had some basic milk-stage head-theism of "Christianity". Sure, that's fine - I am not saying I disbelieve that you believed, I believe that you believe you believed but I ultimately believe you didn't actually fully commit on the inside.


But like David Pawson says, it takes a long time to become born-again. People tend to think it's a prayer, but I am telling you, for a decade I was a Christian-on-the-brink, because there is a process of maturity that takes place. Or are you arguing you were a mature Christian, even though you admit you believed evolution? Only baby-stage Christians wrangle it out mentally with evolution. I got past that, pushed through, went through hell and back, and now you're telling me it's not even real and I was never saved. Yeah right. Nice try, but no sale. I've got news to tell you, many people outside of God's will, think they were saved. I've heard your "kind" of story before, it's nothing new, but the problem is you have never heard the parable of the sower. It is possible to "receive" Christ in a kind of shallow way, but because the seed does not land on good ground, and have any depth, ultimately that belief is replaced in time.


You are not unique, I've heard atheists before tell me things like this, "mike, in five years you will come to see what I came to see," that was about 12 years ago they told me that. But the seed that falls on the good soil, TAKES.




If God is good, then the biblical God must be false.


It's a conditional implication that does not follow. God CAN be benevolent, it is only atheists that state that God must be false/evil, if He is good, because they give us their human-reason as to why God done bad things in the bible. But we choose to trust that God's wisdom is greater than atheist-wisdom. For one thing how would you define, "good" as an atheist, given it would be a logical implication of atheism, that "good" would only be a relative term?


You are standing on the hill of morality but under atheism, there is no hill of morality, morality would be some chemicals knocking around in your head. What is this, "good" you speak of? Is it your good, Bob's good or Joe's good? Bob thinks it is good to rape women, who are you to say he is wrong, if atheism is true?


"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding".


Why? Because:


"For my thoughts are HIGHER than your thoughts."


Ultimately you are asking me to believe you and your fellow unbelievers know better than God. That would mean God is not omniscient, essentially, how can I oblige you?


I shall not, Sir. No way - I know the Lord, He is good He is the bestest baba in the universe, bless His Holy name!

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This is all ultimately a decision Svigil, a person either believes by faith God knows more than we do, or they rely on limited human wisdom. You took the latter, and you almost seem offended because I choose the former.


That decision is made for me, and I have followed the path, I am not turning back now, because like Christ said, "no man putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God".


You are getting more and more heated, you started at this forum sounding like an objective agnostic robot, now you are coming across as a passionately aggravated anti-theist telling us our God is a madman lunatic.

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