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MarkForbes

Do Test Tube Babies Have A Human Spirit Or Soul?

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Here is something that bugs me for a while. I've been working on the artificial insemination of farm animals like sheep and dogs. Despite being very interested in the science and technology of it, I was a bit concerned about this delivering the same results as natural insemination like putting the bull on a cow. The sperm is for instance deep frozen and leaves the area surrounded by heavily loaded blood vessels. However those were just animals and they'd reproduce naturally in the future. So my concern was rather limited. 

 

Later it came to my mind that one can do the same with humans, given that they biologically function the same way like mammals, and this is actually done. 

 

So I wondered what impact this does have on the spiritual side of a human being. Is the spirit passed on from the father (likeness of Adam and the whole paternal line a human being may have)? Or is that artificially conceived creature, just a biological animal that happens to have the same genome class and looks like human beings without a spirit that was passed on?

 

Just to state what I presume about animals is that they've an animus (soul), but that they won't have a spirit in the image of god like Adam had, when he was created. That likeness was of course disturbed by Adams transgression in Eden, but there was still a spirit that dwelt inside of him although not perfectly in control anymore and given to the lust of the flesh, which ultimately killed him. This unperfect spirit was passed onto his descendants as well, if they were naturally conceived. 

 

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Here is something that bugs me for a while. I've been working on the artificial insemination of farm animals like sheep and dogs. Despite being very interested in the science and technology of it, I was a bit concerned about this delivering the same results as natural insemination like putting the bull on a cow. The sperm is for instance deep frozen and leaves the area surrounded by heavily loaded blood vessels. However those were just animals and they'd reproduce naturally in the future. So my concern was rather limited. 
 
Later it came to my mind that one can do the same with humans, given that they biologically function the same way like mammals, and this is actually done. 
 
So I wondered what impact this does have on the spiritual side of a human being. Is the spirit passed on from the father (likeness of Adam and the whole paternal line a human being may have)? Or is that artificially conceived creature, just a biological animal that happens to have the same genome class and looks like human beings without a spirit that was passed on?
 
Just to state what I presume about animals is that they've an animus (soul), but that they won't have a spirit in the image of god like Adam had, when he was created. That likeness was of course disturbed by Adams transgression in Eden, but there was still a spirit that dwelt inside of him although not perfectly in control anymore and given to the lust of the flesh, which ultimately killed him. This unperfect spirit was passed onto his descendants as well, if they were naturally conceived. 

We have been doing human artificial insemination for quite some time.  I see no reason a child born of this process should (spiritually) be any different from any other child.

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We have been doing human artificial insemination for quite some time.  I see no reason a child born of this process should (spiritually) be any different from any other child.

 

OK, that your opinion. But I'm interested in the justification for that opinion. Just "seeing no reason" isn't enough to me. I want to know. What causes the transposition of spirit? Biblically I take it that genealogy are of critical importance. 

Children conceived via natural intercourse, the sperm, egg never leave the human body they're embedded into the parents flesh and blood all the time. 

During AI there are methods that separate both egg and sperm from the sphere of their parents bodies. 

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OK, that your opinion. But I'm interested in the justification for that opinion. Just "seeing no reason" isn't enough to me. I want to know. What causes the transposition of spirit? Biblically I take it that genealogy are of critical importance. 

Justification?

 

How about this .... take a few cells from the child and determine if the child is human.  

 

I want to know. What causes the transposition of spirit? Biblically I take it that genealogy are of critical importance. 

If the child is (fully) human then it has a soul.  If you take the position that human life begins at conception, the conclusion is inescapable.

 

In the case of artificial insemination, the genealogy would trace back to the biological source of the sperm and egg.

 

Children conceived via natural intercourse, the sperm, egg never leave the human body they're embedded into the parents flesh and blood all the time. 

During AI there are methods that separate both egg and sperm from the sphere of their parents bodies. 

What is there about the sperm and/or egg would change if they leave the body of the respective parent?

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You said - "Just to state what I presume about animals is that they've an animus (soul), but that they won't have a spirit in the image of god like Adam had, when he was created. That likeness was of course disturbed by Adams transgression in Eden, but there was still a spirit that dwelt inside of him although not perfectly in control anymore and given to the lust of the flesh, which ultimately killed him. This unperfect spirit was passed onto his descendants as well, if they were naturally conceived.  "

 

Here's my reply.

"OK, that your opinion. But I'm interested in the justification for that opinion."

^ my words, using your words a bit later (in a reply).

 

 
 

I also loved another reply, this time from piasan: "If the child is (fully) human then it has a soul."

Again, Here's my reply.

 

"OK, that your opinion. But I'm interested in the justification for that opinion."

 

 

Here's an idea. What if the artificial process works equally well in animals and humans, simply because humans are animals and none of us/animals actually have a soul. So really, all such talk of a soul and consequences thereof are just pure unfounded speculation, basically from the hope of humans desiring afterlife. I know. Shocking stuff.

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Mark,

 

From Genesis 2:7 (KJV) we have,

 

Point 1;

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,"

 

Point 2;

"and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;"

 

The end result...

"and man BECAME a living soul."

 

Conclusion,

Our bodies do not HAVE a soul... we ARE a soul.

 

(emphasis mine).

 

If you think about it long enough it doesn't matter

HOW one is brought to conception... once done, you

have a irreplaceable human life considered precious by God.

 

Regards.

 

Max ;)

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NNJ: Here's an idea. What if the artificial process works equally well in animals and humans, simply because humans are animals and none of us/animals actually have a soul. So really, all such talk of a soul and consequences thereof are just pure unfounded speculation, basically from the hope of humans desiring afterlife. I know. Shocking stuff.

 

That's a nice idea but all of the empirical evidence shows that humans aren't ONLY animals, all of the overt and blatant evidence shows that we are very special. Not special in the sense that even the bible says we have "no advantage" over the animals - we can be killed just as easily for example, but obviously human life betrays the atheist and/or evolutionistic concept that we are just animals.

 

If we are just animals then we would just do what the animals do, and I don't see any chimps typing on keyboards, or understanding concepts such as the laws of nature, mathematics, morality. We only see one kind made in God's image, and that is humans because we have the similar creative ability to intelligently design like God. 

 

So at first your sophistry seems to make sense, as that is what sophistry does, it makes great sense at first glance, but if we dig beneath your argument we can see that really it's rather superficial, as what it boils down to is that because you can't see a spirit in a human, and physically examine it, that it isn't there. That's just an argument from ignorance but in fact all of the unique things that humans can do is what proves that we are special.

 

The silliest part of your philosophy is the DENIAL you have to preach, when you PRETEND we are just apes. All of the evidence shows that humans are over-designed, even the many, many more muscles in our face aren't needed for example, but are only there for expression. Mankind betrays evolution, for if evolution was true then we would just be a walking ape, doing nothing more than apes do. Humans are OVERKILL, all of the things we can do just wouldn't come through evolution, and many of them are not necessary for survival. Is it reasonable to believe that only one kind of creature out of hundreds of millions, would be the creature to stand out? No - for if it was evolution there would probably be maybe 25 other creatures that could do everything we can do, including writing, speaking, creating, designing, etc...Face it, we betray the notion that we are "just animals".

 

 

 

NNJ: I know. Shocking stuff.

 

Not really, if we are just animals that die why even preach to tell me that? What difference would it make if I believed you or if I believed it made more sense to sew my head to the carpet? If your philosophy is true, basically nothing matters...and the old canard of, "they invented heaven to escape death" is a begging-the-question fallacy. Simply stating people invented heaven to solve the death problem is just that - to baldly state your OPINION of what happened. Nothing more.

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Mark,

 

From Genesis 2:7 (KJV) we have,

 

Point 1;

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,"

 

Point 2;

"and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;"

 

The end result...

"and man BECAME a living soul."

 

Conclusion,

Our bodies do not HAVE a soul... we ARE a soul.

 

(emphasis mine).

 

If you think about it long enough it doesn't matter

HOW one is brought to conception... once done, you

have a irreplaceable human life considered precious by God.

 

Regards.

 

Max ;)

This is the response I would agree with as a reply to the original post when the presuppositions are granted.

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This is the response I would agree with as a reply to the original post when the presuppositions are granted.

Thanks. :)

 

It was the best I could do without getting... (ahem) "too preachy".

 

Regards.

 

Max ;)

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Hello all, it's been awhile ! And it's pretty cool that my first time looking at this forum in ages I'd immediately find such an interesting question ^^

 

It's pretty old so I suppose y'all have moved on, but just in case MarkForbes you're still interested in the question, I'm really curious. As others pointed out, millions of living human beings today are the result of artificial insemination (not even to mention in vitro fertilization !). If they do not have a soul, or the same kind of soul that humans conceived the old-fashioned way do, if you were to talk and interact with one of those people, do you think you'd be able to find out their spiritual status ? If so, what "tells" or characteristics do you think would show you that they don't have a spirit ? If not, how in your opinion does having a spirit affect a person ?

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Here is something that bugs me for a while. I've been working on the artificial insemination of farm animals like sheep and dogs. Despite being very interested in the science and technology of it, I was a bit concerned about this delivering the same results as natural insemination like putting the bull on a cow. The sperm is for instance deep frozen and leaves the area surrounded by heavily loaded blood vessels. However those were just animals and they'd reproduce naturally in the future. So my concern was rather limited. 
 
Later it came to my mind that one can do the same with humans, given that they biologically function the same way like mammals, and this is actually done. 
So I wondered what impact this does have on the spiritual side of a human being. Is the spirit passed on from the father (likeness of Adam and the whole paternal line a human being may have)? Or is that artificially conceived creature, just a biological animal that happens to have the same genome class and looks like human beings without a spirit that was passed on?
 
Just to state what I presume about animals is that they've an animus (soul), but that they won't have a spirit in the image of god like Adam had, when he was created. That likeness was of course disturbed by Adams transgression in Eden, but there was still a spirit that dwelt inside of him although not perfectly in control anymore and given to the lust of the flesh, which ultimately killed him. This unperfect spirit was passed onto his descendants as well, if they were naturally conceived. 

 

 

I don't understand why test tube baby is hot topic for discussion. Test tube baby is human being like as we are .......so don't think and discuss much about it,

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....

Here's an idea. What if the artificial process works equally well in animals and humans, simply because humans are animals and none of us/animals actually have a soul. So really, all such talk of a soul and consequences thereof are just pure unfounded speculation, basically from the hope of humans desiring afterlife. I know. Shocking stuff.

.

I read through the first page of this thread waiting for someone to broach the subject of the existence of the human soul--as it exists, or may exist. I must admit that you began properly with "... an idea", but shot yourself in the foot with the subsequent sentence, which I believe you intended to be a question.

 

You have reminded me of that I once posed an "Easter quiz" to my Sister's children. You should be able to answer the quiz in a new thread.

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