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9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2 Peter 8

 

 

If you are a Christian universalist then I salute you and wish to inquire about your specific view of such a theology; I have never had the pleasure of a back and forth between a Christian universalist, although I once was one myself and delved into articles on the topic for a short time many years ago. There are a few camps within this theology, and perhaps surprisingly I was in the more conservative one where Hell was real yet a finite chastisement tailored to the specific person where such a place was a crucible to shape/prepare/prune the soul for eventual salvation, rather than a blanket 'free-for-all-pass' into Heaven no strings attached.

 

I have a suspicion you are not a Christian universalist, and that you believe our fate is sealed upon death and you better become a Christian before then. With that assumption, although God does not wish any to perish, the Bible also says the majority of people will not find the path to life (in Christian universalism life finds them). So you still have to wrestle with the ethical dilemma that God made people for the purpose of a relationship knowing in advance that the vast majority of them will reject this relationship and end up in eternal torment, or tormented for an unspecified amount of time before the soul is annihilated, depending on your view of Hell.

 

"Although I once was one myself"

 

You were a what..? A "Christian Univeralist"? BTW.. What is Christian Universalist? I havent a clue and have never heard the term before now.. Ever..

 

"Scientists who utterly reject Evolution may be one of our fastest growing controversial minorities...Many of the scientists supporting this position hold impressive credentials in science."

 

(Larry Hatfield, "Educators Against Darwin," Science Digest Special

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Goku,

Personally, I am much better at discussing science. When it come to theology and apologetics, I would defer to others who know much more and are better at this than I am.

 

I see no point is discussing a hypothetical analogy of creating 1001 people on a lonely island. My experience has been that you can not really "reason" your way to God.

 

That is certainly a reasonable position to take, and I don't think my question is an easy one for Christians to tackle.

 

I won't press you on an answer, but I would like to emphasize that the deserted island analogy is, in essence, not hypothetical or some obscure academic exercise. If the purpose of God creating humans is so God can have a relationship with them - a relationship with a non-robot or non-angel who has 'special' understanding/experiences, then the core of the analogy is exactly what most Christians believe.

 

Actually, God does sometimes make His presence known, but in more "gentlemanly ways".  For some people, God doesn't ever need to do this, because they already acknowledge Him. Others do have a once-in-a-lifetime turning point. But, if it would take a "thunderous bolt of lightning" to get your attention, than perhaps you are, at this point in your life, too hard-hearted to be open for a meaningful relationship? (Although, I understand that this IS what change Martin Luther's heart)

 

I suspect you are young. God is not through with you yet. You may yet have your encounter or experience, that will change your mind. Best Wishes to you.

I just mean something tangible that can't realistically be anything else. I've witnessed a few strange things; enough to accept that there is more to reality than what the stereotypical dogmatic atheist believes, but nothing that would equate to 'no reasonable doubt that God exists', let alone the Christian God.

 

I don't feel super young anymore, but I suppose you have a valid point; I'm still in my 20's.

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Goku

I won't press you on an answer, but I would like to emphasize that the deserted island analogy is, in essence, not hypothetical or some obscure academic exercise. If the purpose of God creating humans is so God can have a relationship with them - a relationship with a non-robot or non-angel who has 'special' understanding/experiences, then the core of the analogy is exactly what most Christians believe.

 

I don't think that your analogy will give you an answer that you would like. By your analogy, "Goku logic" would go something like this: One soul who "finds" God equals (+1). Each soul that ends up the other way, ends up as being negative one. (-1) But in God's logic, the math works more like this: Each soul who "finds" Him equals (+ infinity). Each soul who does not... equals, (0?), (-1?). (-infinity?) What ever value you place, God finds the "one" of great worth.  

 

Kind of reminds me of the shepherd  of 100 sheep who leaves the flock of 99 behind, in order to search for the "lost" one. 

 

As I said before, I don't think you can "reason" your way into faith in God. And I personal, have no skill in apologetics. There are others who would be much better to talk to on this. But I suspect their answers would fall on deaf ears, because "Goku logic" won't work to gain you understanding in this realm.

 

I just mean something tangible that can't realistically be anything else.

 

 

That's what I meant too. And I still see you as young with lots more opportunity to have such an experience in your life.  :gotcha:

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"Although I once was one myself"

You were a what..? A "Christian Univeralist"? BTW.. What is Christian Universalist? I havent a clue and have never heard the term before now.. Ever..

 

"Scientists who utterly reject Evolution may be one of our fastest growing controversial minorities...Many of the scientists supporting this position hold impressive credentials in science."

 

(Larry Hatfield, "Educators Against Darwin," Science Digest Special

 

I grew up in the Church, although I become a Christian universalist post high-school.

 

Christian universalism is not a denomination but a doctrinal view about the soul and afterlife. There are different forms of the doctrine, but what they all have in common is that everyone goes to Heaven when they die. There are two basic forms, the liberal form and the conservative form. The liberal form is basically everyone goes to Heaven as soon as they die irrespective of anything you can think of. This is similar to the separate religion of Unitarian Universalsim. Out of convention you capitalize the U in universal when talking about the Unitarians, but you do not capitalize the u when talking about Christian universalism.

 

The conservative form is more nuanced, and this was the camp I belonged to. In summary, when you die you go to Heaven or Hell like main-stream Christian thought, but the purpose of Hell is not punitive or merely the natural consequence of rejecting God and thus suffering by not being in God's presence. Although Hell is still not a nice place, it's seen as a form of corrective punishment (chastisement) to purify the soul. Once the soul is purified it is granted into Heaven. The logic is that given enough time everyone's soul will eventually be purified and thus all will go to Heaven, eventually. How long a person is in Hell and how miserable it will be is different for each person depending on the state of their soul and how receptive they are to the correction.

 

I would say the arguments for this doctrine come in three categories, which I'll try to briefly summarize. The first is a moral one: The idea of a soul being eternally tormented in Hell is both unjust and something a loving God would not tolerate. I actually become a Christian universalist solely through my own introspection on this point combined with a dream in which I believed I heard God speak to me, and when I woke up I was a Christian universalist despite not knowing that such a word existed or that anyone else thought as I did.

 

The second is historical: The fundamental ideas, or at least the rudiments of such ideas, are found in the early schools of Christian thought and were once the dominant doctrine of the afterlife around the 3rd century AD. At this time six major schools of Christian thought emerged. Four out of the six taught a form of universalism, one taught annihilationism (the soul is tormented in Hell for some time then is destroyed), and the only one to use Latin translations rather than the Greek manuscripts was the church in Rome (Catholicism) which preached eternal torment in Hell.

 

The third is looking for hints within the Bible itself: There are many examples, but a commonly used one is that when Jesus talked about Hell (would have to look up the specific passage) the Greek word for the punishment connotates chastisement, not punitive punishment, which implies that a soul is not trapped in Hell forever once the soul has been corrected.

 

You may be interested to know that the person who taught me the most about Christian universalism was an extremely anti-evolution ordained minister from a conservative denomination. While Christian universalism may seem like a solely liberal doctrine, Christians across the spectrum have embraced it.

 

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"Although I once was one myself"

You were a what..? A "Christian Univeralist"? BTW.. What is Christian Universalist? I havent a clue and have never heard the term before now.. Ever..

 

"Scientists who utterly reject Evolution may be one of our fastest growing controversial minorities...Many of the scientists supporting this position hold impressive credentials in science."

 

(Larry Hatfield, "Educators Against Darwin," Science Digest Special

 

I grew up in the Church, although I become a Christian universalist post high-school.

 

Christian universalism is not a denomination but a doctrinal view about the soul and afterlife. There are different forms of the doctrine, but what they all have in common is that everyone goes to Heaven when they die. There are two basic forms, the liberal form and the conservative form. The liberal form is basically everyone goes to Heaven as soon as they die irrespective of anything you can think of. This is similar to the separate religion of Unitarian Universalsim. Out of convention you capitalize the U in universal when talking about the Unitarians, but you do not capitalize the u when talking about Christian universalism.

 

The conservative form is more nuanced, and this was the camp I belonged to. In summary, when you die you go to Heaven or Hell like main-stream Christian thought, but the purpose of Hell is not punitive or merely the natural consequence of rejecting God and thus suffering by not being in God's presence. Although Hell is still not a nice place, it's seen as a form of corrective punishment (chastisement) to purify the soul. Once the soul is purified it is granted into Heaven. The logic is that given enough time everyone's soul will eventually be purified and thus all will go to Heaven, eventually. How long a person is in Hell and how miserable it will be is different for each person depending on the state of their soul and how receptive they are to the correction.

 

I would say the arguments for this doctrine come in three categories, which I'll try to briefly summarize. The first is a moral one: The idea of a soul being eternally tormented in Hell is both unjust and something a loving God would not tolerate. I actually become a Christian universalist solely through my own introspection on this point combined with a dream in which I believed I heard God speak to me, and when I woke up I was a Christian universalist despite not knowing that such a word existed or that anyone else thought as I did.

 

The second is historical: The fundamental ideas, or at least the rudiments of such ideas, are found in the early schools of Christian thought and were once the dominant doctrine of the afterlife around the 3rd century AD. At this time six major schools of Christian thought emerged. Four out of the six taught a form of universalism, one taught annihilationism (the soul is tormented in Hell for some time then is destroyed), and the only one to use Latin translations rather than the Greek manuscripts was the church in Rome (Catholicism) which preached eternal torment in Hell.

 

The third is looking for hints within the Bible itself: There are many examples, but a commonly used one is that when Jesus talked about Hell (would have to look up the specific passage) the Greek word for the punishment connotates chastisement, not punitive punishment, which implies that a soul is not trapped in Hell forever once the soul has been corrected.

 

You may be interested to know that the person who taught me the most about Christian universalism was an extremely anti-evolution ordained minister from a conservative denomination. While Christian universalism may seem like a solely liberal doctrine, Christians across the spectrum have embraced it.

 

 

 

"but what they all have in common is that everyone goes to Heaven when they die."

 

Everyone? Hitler? Mao? Stalin? Hillary? 

 

Sounds like you were a "Christian Universalist" Whatever that is.. but never actually a CHRISTIAN....

 

So how long did you have a relationship with Jesus? (Being a Christian) And why did you decide to start hating him when all he has ever done is love you?

 

Don't sit there and tell us that the Mindless MYO Mud to Man Myth of Abiogenesis followed by UCA for all flora and Fauna (TOE) convinced you that Jesus is a Myth..

 

THAT WONT WORK HERE...

 

ALL Christians , Including every single one who I have ever met KNOW that Jesus is Real and that he is God just like he said he is...

 

So the only reason you could POSSIBLY BE an "Ex Christian" would be that you no longer wished to live by Jesus rules and decided that there is no room in your heart for both You AND Jesus so you made the decision to kick him out and become an "Ex Christian"

 

If you think that the world wide flood of Noah never happened, how do you explain all of the dinosaurs going extinct suddenly at the same time? And how do you explain that EVERY SINGLE set of Dinosaur remains THAT HAS EVER BEEN Radiometric dated have shown Measureable Carbon 14 content??

 

If they were only 50,000 years old, there should be ZERO but the Data aren't cooperating with you are they??

 

 http://newgeology.us/presentation48.html 

 

That's right, your beloved "Science" has CENSORED this information as it doesn't agree with the 100 Million Year old Paradigm AND time desperately needed to make the slow microbes to microbiologist myth possible..

 

ALSO, AS YOU VERY WELL KNOW

 

We find Red Blood Cells, DNA Fragments, Collagen, and Blood Vessels in Dinosaurs that were supposed to be "100 Million years old"..

 

OOPS

 

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dinosaur-shocker-115306469/

 

But you will NEVER see this in the Biology textbooks...

 

So much for Science searching for truth... LOL     :kaffeetrinker: 

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9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that all should come to repentance.

 

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2 Peter 8

 

If you are a Christian universalist then I salute you and wish to inquire about your specific view of such a theology; I have never had the pleasure of a back and forth between a Christian universalist, although I once was one myself and delved into articles on the topic for a short time many years ago. There are a few camps within this theology, and perhaps surprisingly I was in the more conservative one where Hell was real yet a finite chastisement tailored to the specific person where such a place was a crucible to shape/prepare/prune the soul for eventual salvation, rather than a blanket 'free-for-all-pass' into Heaven no strings attached.

 

I have a suspicion you are not a Christian universalist, and that you believe our fate is sealed upon death and you better become a Christian before then. With that assumption, although God does not wish any to perish, the Bible also says the majority of people will not find the path to life (in Christian universalism life finds them). So you still have to wrestle with the ethical dilemma that God made people for the purpose of a relationship knowing in advance that the vast majority of them will reject this relationship and end up in eternal torment, or tormented for an unspecified amount of time before the soul is annihilated, depending on your view of Hell.

 

 

"I have a suspicion you are not a Christian universalist, "  Yes, you have very good instincts Goku..

 

The idea of Hell and all of the unanswerable questions concerning it are obviously troubling to every

person who has ever heard the gospel... 99.9999% of us..  And that is why I dont try to concern myself

with it too much other than to know I dont want to go there and to trust God that he is a faithful and

just God as he says he is.. I believe him.. But knowing him makes my decision very easy.. How can you

trust someone you dont know!!  Faith seems to be very important to God for some reason.. It is mentioned

over and over in the Bible as being critical to our spiritual lives..  I too have experienced many things that

simply cannot be explained away using what you would call "Rational" thought... I took a leap of faith

many years ago to accept Christ and be born again in spirit and in truth and have been greatly rewarded..

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"but what they all have in common is that everyone goes to Heaven when they die."

 

Everyone? Hitler? Mao? Stalin? Hillary?

 

Yes! - or are you saying that if those people genuinely repented and followed Christ that they would be denied entry into the body?

 

The key is that this transformation of the soul is possible after death, as opposed to being 'locked in place' at the time of death as believed by main-stream Christianity.

 

Sounds like you were a "Christian Universalist" Whatever that is.. but never actually a CHRISTIAN....

 

So how long did you have a relationship with Jesus? (Being a Christian) And why did you decide to start hating him when all he has ever done is love you?

 

ALL Christians , Including every single one who I have ever met KNOW that Jesus is Real and that he is God just like he said he is...

 

So the only reason you could POSSIBLY BE an "Ex Christian" would be that you no longer wished to live by Jesus rules and decided that there is no room in your heart for both You AND Jesus so you made the decision to kick him out and become an "Ex Christian"

I guess it depends on how you want to qualify 'relationship'; I'm quite familiar with how sectarian Christendom can be. In short I've spent many years consistently reading the Bible and other material, praying every day, praying when things come up, and fully believed without reservation even in the face of skeptics. Like I said I grew up in the church, and thus had periods when I was spiritually growing and periods of sliding back (don't we all?), and so my understanding and spiritual state was different at different times during this period. I was not taught Christian universalism; I gained that belief through introspection and revelation, even against the belief of every Christian leader that was personally involved in my life.

 

I too believed without reservation that God was real and Jesus was God and died for my sins; to me it was as sure a thing as the rising of the Sun each day. I lost my faith when I examined my faith and stacked it up against what I knew and what I experienced. Of course I talked to other believers searching for answers, rummaged through scripture, and spent many nights praying, but in the end I was not satisfied with the answers I received. The journey of losing faith took many years, and in the beginning the thought of reality being outside the Christian world-view was ludicrous.

 

It wasn't like "I'm kicking you out Jesus", it was more like "I realize Jesus isn't there, and what I thought was Jesus was my own mind weaving a reality based on what I was taught; superimposing those elements on my experiences and then interpreting those experiences with the bias that those elements are true." It wasn't a conscious decision anymore than you can consciously believe, truly believe, that the Earth is flat.

 

Don't sit there and tell us that the Mindless MYO Mud to Man Myth of Abiogenesis followed by UCA for all flora and Fauna (TOE) convinced you that Jesus is a Myth..

 

The natural sciences had little to do with my deconversion. Sure when I was a kid I read Genesis and such literally; I remember picking up a Bible and turning it to Genesis 1 in order to learn about the physical origins of the universe, Earth, and mankind. I got up to the story of Cain and Able and stopped once the first round of genealogies cropped up, but in my defense I was like 8 years old or so - at the time I just got my first non-kid Bible and was excited. However, when I was a teenager and learning about evolution in school and such I was aware of the creation-evolution debate, and I was nurtured in the theistic evolution mentality.

 

I would say the social sciences, particularly psychology, played a role in my deconversion. I was perfectly happy combining theism with evolution and big bang, and it wasn't until towards the end when contemplating the principle of parsimony and god-of-the-gaps did the natural sciences have any real role, but it would have never been a factor unless other factors pushed me there.

 

If you think that the world wide flood of Noah never happened, how do you explain all of the dinosaurs going extinct suddenly at the same time? And how do you explain that EVERY SINGLE set of Dinosaur remains THAT HAS EVER BEEN Radiometric dated have shown Measureable Carbon 14 content??

 

If they were only 50,000 years old, there should be ZERO but the Data aren't cooperating with you are they??

 

 http://newgeology.us/presentation48.html 

 

That's right, your beloved "Science" has CENSORED this information as it doesn't agree with the 100 Million Year old Paradigm AND time desperately needed to make the slow microbes to microbiologist myth possible..

 

ALSO, AS YOU VERY WELL KNOW

 

We find Red Blood Cells, DNA Fragments, Collagen, and Blood Vessels in Dinosaurs that were supposed to be "100 Million years old"..

 

OOPS

 

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dinosaur-shocker-115306469/

 

But you will NEVER see this in the Biology textbooks...

 

So much for Science searching for truth... LOL     :kaffeetrinker:

 

Dinosaurs went extinct suddenly (in geological time) due to a massive asteroid impact as evidence by things like an iridium layer and micro diamonds.

 

Radiometric dating has an upper limit, like ~50,000 for C14, because after that limit you can't deal with the noise to signal ratio, and even the slightest bit of contamination makes the whole thing go haywire. Last time I checked your radiocarbon dino story it was just some guy that lied to the university to get the dinosaur bones, lied to the lab technicians about what he was doing, and when the technicians told him that the dino bones were laced in shellac preservatives (biologic in origin) so it would interfere with C-14 dating he again lied telling him it wouldn't interfere with his work, and then preceded to tout this radiocarbon date (which dated the shellac preservatives not the dino bone) as evidence dinos lived thousands of years ago. If you want to do something beyond posting a link or copy-paste an article I'd be willing to look into it when I have the time, otherwise I can't be bothered with it.

 

As has been explained ad nauseam by multiple people, of course it is amazing that dehydrated fragments of soft tissue has survived for millions of years, and researchers have studied this phenomena and have come up with variables to help explain this from a combination of the right temperature, moisture, sterility, and chemical matrices locking soft tissue components in a preservative state. Biological decay is known to have many factors involved, yet radiometric decay is known to be virtually constant unless subjected to extreme conditions that aren't found on Earth in any meaningful way.

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"but what they all have in common is that everyone goes to Heaven when they die."

 

Everyone? Hitler? Mao? Stalin? Hillary?

 

 

Yes! - or are you saying that if those people genuinely repented and followed Christ that they would be denied entry into the body?

 

The key is that this transformation of the soul is possible after death, as opposed to being 'locked in place' at the time of death as believed by main-stream Christianity.

 

Sounds like you were a "Christian Universalist" Whatever that is.. but never actually a CHRISTIAN.... 

So how long did you have a relationship with Jesus? (Being a Christian) And why did you decide to start hating him when all he has ever done is love you?[/size]

 

ALL Christians , Including every single one who I have ever met KNOW that Jesus is Real and that he is God just like he said he is... [/size]

 

So the only reason you could POSSIBLY BE an "Ex Christian" would be that you no longer wished to live by Jesus rules and decided that there is no room in your heart for both You AND Jesus so you made the decision to kick him out and become an "Ex Christian"[/size]

 

I guess it depends on how you want to qualify 'relationship'; I'm quite familiar with how sectarian Christendom can be. In short I've spent many years consistently reading the Bible and other material, praying every day, praying when things come up, and fully believed without reservation even in the face of skeptics. Like I said I grew up in the church, and thus had periods when I was spiritually growing and periods of sliding back (don't we all?), and so my understanding and spiritual state was different at different times during this period. I was not taught Christian universalism; I gained that belief through introspection and revelation, even against the belief of every Christian leader that was personally involved in my life.

 

I too believed without reservation that God was real and Jesus was God and died for my sins; to me it was as sure a thing as the rising of the Sun each day. I lost my faith when I examined my faith and stacked it up against what I knew and what I experienced. Of course I talked to other believers searching for answers, rummaged through scripture, and spent many nights praying, but in the end I was not satisfied with the answers I received. The journey of losing faith took many years, and in the beginning the thought of reality being outside the Christian world-view was ludicrous.

 

It wasn't like "I'm kicking you out Jesus", it was more like "I realize Jesus isn't there, and what I thought was Jesus was my own mind weaving a reality based on what I was taught; superimposing those elements on my experiences and then interpreting those experiences with the bias that those elements are true." It wasn't a conscious decision anymore than you can consciously believe, truly believe, that the Earth is flat.

 

Don't sit there and tell us that the Mindless MYO Mud to Man Myth of Abiogenesis followed by UCA for all flora and Fauna (TOE) convinced you that Jesus is a Myth..[/size]

 

 

The natural sciences had little to do with my deconversion. Sure when I was a kid I read Genesis and such literally; I remember picking up a Bible and turning it to Genesis 1 in order to learn about the physical origins of the universe, Earth, and mankind. I got up to the story of Cain and Able and stopped once the first round of genealogies cropped up, but in my defense I was like 8 years old or so - at the time I just got my first non-kid Bible and was excited. However, when I was a teenager and learning about evolution in school and such I was aware of the creation-evolution debate, and I was nurtured in the theistic evolution mentality.

 

I would say the social sciences, particularly psychology, played a role in my deconversion. I was perfectly happy combining theism with evolution and big bang, and it wasn't until towards the end when contemplating the principle of parsimony and god-of-the-gaps did the natural sciences have any real role, but it would have never been a factor unless other factors pushed me there.

 

If you think that the world wide flood of Noah never happened, how do you explain all of the dinosaurs going extinct suddenly at the same time? And how do you explain that EVERY SINGLE set of Dinosaur remains THAT HAS EVER BEEN Radiometric dated have shown Measureable Carbon 14 content??[/size]

 

If they were only 50,000 years old, there should be ZERO but the Data aren't cooperating with you are they??[/size]

 

 [/size]http://newgeology.us/presentation48.html [/size]

 

That's right, your beloved "Science" has CENSORED this information as it doesn't agree with the 100 Million Year old Paradigm AND time desperately needed to make the slow microbes to microbiologist myth possible..[/size]

 

ALSO, AS YOU VERY WELL KNOW[/size]

 

We find Red Blood Cells, DNA Fragments, Collagen, and Blood Vessels in Dinosaurs that were supposed to be "100 Million years old"..[/size]

 

OOPS[/size]

 

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dinosaur-shocker-115306469/

 

But you will NEVER see this in the Biology textbooks...[/size]

 

So much for Science searching for truth... LOL     :kaffeetrinker:[/size] [/size]

 

 

Dinosaurs went extinct suddenly (in geological time) due to a massive asteroid impact as evidence by things like an iridium layer and micro diamonds.

 

Radiometric dating has an upper limit, like ~50,000 for C14, because after that limit you can't deal with the noise to signal ratio, and even the slightest bit of contamination makes the whole thing go haywire. Last time I checked your radiocarbon dino story it was just some guy that lied to the university to get the dinosaur bones, lied to the lab technicians about what he was doing, and when the technicians told him that the dino bones were laced in shellac preservatives (biologic in origin) so it would interfere with C-14 dating he again lied telling him it wouldn't interfere with his work, and then preceded to tout this radiocarbon date (which dated the shellac preservatives not the dino bone) as evidence dinos lived thousands of years ago. If you want to do something beyond posting a link or copy-paste an article I'd be willing to look into it when I have the time, otherwise I can't be bothered with it.

 

As has been explained ad nauseam by multiple people, of course it is amazing that dehydrated fragments of soft tissue has survived for millions of years, and researchers have studied this phenomena and have come up with variables to help explain this from a combination of the right temperature, moisture, sterility, and chemical matrices locking soft tissue components in a preservative state. Biological decay is known to have many factors involved, yet radiometric decay is known to be virtually constant unless subjected to extreme conditions that aren't found on Earth in any meaningful way.

 

"I guess it depends on how you want to qualify 'relationship"

 

Dont worry Goku.. You were never a Christian. No Christian I know would ever ask this question... You apparently looked at Christianity the same way you looked at a math quiz.. Trying to accomodate yourself to it intellectually.. It doesnt work that way and never has.. It is about being born again of the spirit as Jesus said ALL Christians MUST be.. And then.. Well, the Bible says it better than I can..

 

"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to discern what is the good, pleasing and perfect will of God" Romans 12

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"but what they all have in common is that everyone goes to Heaven when they die."

 

Everyone? Hitler? Mao? Stalin? Hillary?

 

 

Yes! - or are you saying that if those people genuinely repented and followed Christ that they would be denied entry into the body?

 

The key is that this transformation of the soul is possible after death, as opposed to being 'locked in place' at the time of death as believed by main-stream Christianity.

 

Sounds like you were a "Christian Universalist" Whatever that is.. but never actually a CHRISTIAN.... 

So how long did you have a relationship with Jesus? (Being a Christian) And why did you decide to start hating him when all he has ever done is love you?[/size]

 

ALL Christians , Including every single one who I have ever met KNOW that Jesus is Real and that he is God just like he said he is... [/size]

 

So the only reason you could POSSIBLY BE an "Ex Christian" would be that you no longer wished to live by Jesus rules and decided that there is no room in your heart for both You AND Jesus so you made the decision to kick him out and become an "Ex Christian"[/size]

 

I guess it depends on how you want to qualify 'relationship'; I'm quite familiar with how sectarian Christendom can be. In short I've spent many years consistently reading the Bible and other material, praying every day, praying when things come up, and fully believed without reservation even in the face of skeptics. Like I said I grew up in the church, and thus had periods when I was spiritually growing and periods of sliding back (don't we all?), and so my understanding and spiritual state was different at different times during this period. I was not taught Christian universalism; I gained that belief through introspection and revelation, even against the belief of every Christian leader that was personally involved in my life.

 

I too believed without reservation that God was real and Jesus was God and died for my sins; to me it was as sure a thing as the rising of the Sun each day. I lost my faith when I examined my faith and stacked it up against what I knew and what I experienced. Of course I talked to other believers searching for answers, rummaged through scripture, and spent many nights praying, but in the end I was not satisfied with the answers I received. The journey of losing faith took many years, and in the beginning the thought of reality being outside the Christian world-view was ludicrous.

 

It wasn't like "I'm kicking you out Jesus", it was more like "I realize Jesus isn't there, and what I thought was Jesus was my own mind weaving a reality based on what I was taught; superimposing those elements on my experiences and then interpreting those experiences with the bias that those elements are true." It wasn't a conscious decision anymore than you can consciously believe, truly believe, that the Earth is flat.

 

Don't sit there and tell us that the Mindless MYO Mud to Man Myth of Abiogenesis followed by UCA for all flora and Fauna (TOE) convinced you that Jesus is a Myth..[/size]

 

 

The natural sciences had little to do with my deconversion. Sure when I was a kid I read Genesis and such literally; I remember picking up a Bible and turning it to Genesis 1 in order to learn about the physical origins of the universe, Earth, and mankind. I got up to the story of Cain and Able and stopped once the first round of genealogies cropped up, but in my defense I was like 8 years old or so - at the time I just got my first non-kid Bible and was excited. However, when I was a teenager and learning about evolution in school and such I was aware of the creation-evolution debate, and I was nurtured in the theistic evolution mentality.

 

I would say the social sciences, particularly psychology, played a role in my deconversion. I was perfectly happy combining theism with evolution and big bang, and it wasn't until towards the end when contemplating the principle of parsimony and god-of-the-gaps did the natural sciences have any real role, but it would have never been a factor unless other factors pushed me there.

 

If you think that the world wide flood of Noah never happened, how do you explain all of the dinosaurs going extinct suddenly at the same time? And how do you explain that EVERY SINGLE set of Dinosaur remains THAT HAS EVER BEEN Radiometric dated have shown Measureable Carbon 14 content??[/size]

 

If they were only 50,000 years old, there should be ZERO but the Data aren't cooperating with you are they??[/size]

 

 [/size]http://newgeology.us/presentation48.html [/size]

 

That's right, your beloved "Science" has CENSORED this information as it doesn't agree with the 100 Million Year old Paradigm AND time desperately needed to make the slow microbes to microbiologist myth possible..[/size]

 

ALSO, AS YOU VERY WELL KNOW[/size]

 

We find Red Blood Cells, DNA Fragments, Collagen, and Blood Vessels in Dinosaurs that were supposed to be "100 Million years old"..[/size]

 

OOPS[/size]

 

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dinosaur-shocker-115306469/

 

But you will NEVER see this in the Biology textbooks...[/size]

 

So much for Science searching for truth... LOL     :kaffeetrinker:[/size] [/size]

 

 

Dinosaurs went extinct suddenly (in geological time) due to a massive asteroid impact as evidence by things like an iridium layer and micro diamonds.

 

Radiometric dating has an upper limit, like ~50,000 for C14, because after that limit you can't deal with the noise to signal ratio, and even the slightest bit of contamination makes the whole thing go haywire. Last time I checked your radiocarbon dino story it was just some guy that lied to the university to get the dinosaur bones, lied to the lab technicians about what he was doing, and when the technicians told him that the dino bones were laced in shellac preservatives (biologic in origin) so it would interfere with C-14 dating he again lied telling him it wouldn't interfere with his work, and then preceded to tout this radiocarbon date (which dated the shellac preservatives not the dino bone) as evidence dinos lived thousands of years ago. If you want to do something beyond posting a link or copy-paste an article I'd be willing to look into it when I have the time, otherwise I can't be bothered with it.

 

As has been explained ad nauseam by multiple people, of course it is amazing that dehydrated fragments of soft tissue has survived for millions of years, and researchers have studied this phenomena and have come up with variables to help explain this from a combination of the right temperature, moisture, sterility, and chemical matrices locking soft tissue components in a preservative state. Biological decay is known to have many factors involved, yet radiometric decay is known to be virtually constant unless subjected to extreme conditions that aren't found on Earth in any meaningful way.

 

 

Dinosaurs went extinct suddenly (in geological time) due to a massive asteroid impact as evidence by things like an iridium layer and micro diamonds.

 

Come on.. You didnt even through in the obligatory IMHO.. Lol..

You are just repeating things that you have been brainwashed to believing as if the dogma that you were indoctrinated into believing has anything to do with reality... Evolution is Brainwashing 101..

 

No more then the Science department of UC Berkeley (Evolutionists All) says this..

 

"Ultimately, a time machine would be required to see exactly what killed the dinosaurs."

 

 

What Killed The Dinosaurs?

 

THE GREAT MYSTERY

 

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/extinction.html

 

 

 

So, do you know more than they do?

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"I guess it depends on how you want to qualify 'relationship"

Dont worry Goku.. You were never a Christian. No Christian I know would ever ask this question... You apparently looked at Christianity the same way you looked at a math quiz.. Trying to accomodate yourself to it intellectually.. It doesnt work that way and never has.. It is about being born again of the spirit as Jesus said ALL Christians MUST be.. And then.. Well, the Bible says it better than I can..

 

"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to discern what is the good, pleasing and perfect will of God" Romans 12

 

It was a jab at Christians, not a comment on my own faith. But don't worry, I understand. As a former Christian then by definition I could have never been a true Christian anyway irrespective of any other fact. That's what it always comes down to in these types of situations. The 'real' Christians will look for any spec of dust in my eye, which there are many, and say 'see look, you weren't really walking the walk like I was.' It has nothing to do with my relationship with God or Jesus; most Christians simply can't look beyond their brainwashed safe space bubble.

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"I guess it depends on how you want to qualify 'relationship"

Dont worry Goku.. You were never a Christian. No Christian I know would ever ask this question... You apparently looked at Christianity the same way you looked at a math quiz.. Trying to accomodate yourself to it intellectually.. It doesnt work that way and never has.. It is about being born again of the spirit as Jesus said ALL Christians MUST be.. And then.. Well, the Bible says it better than I can..

 

"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to discern what is the good, pleasing and perfect will of God" Romans 12

 

It was a jab at Christians, not a comment on my own faith. But don't worry, I understand. As a former Christian then by definition I could have never been a true Christian anyway irrespective of any other fact. That's what it always comes down to in these types of situations. The 'real' Christians will look for any spec of dust in my eye, which there are many, and say 'see look, you weren't really walking the walk like I was.' It has nothing to do with my relationship with God or Jesus; most Christians simply can't look beyond their brainwashed safe space bubble.

 

 

"It was a jab at Christians, not a comment on my own faith. But don't worry, I understand."

 

It doesn't appear that way at all..   You dont know how many of these conversations I have

had with people who claimed to be "Ex Christians" who, after I ask my routine of follow up questions

start to choke, dodge, evade, and change the subject much the same way you have... you see,

God knows our hearts and our intentions, We may be able to fool teachers, friends, wives, cops, and

any and all other humans.. but not God... It wont work..  Lip service and game playing wont cut it..

 

If you call what you described of your "Christianity" as merely a "spec of dust in your eye" then

you are living in denial.. but, living in denial is a prerequisite for the religion of Evolutionism....

 

 

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

 

Galatians 6:7

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"but what they all have in common is that everyone goes to Heaven when they die."

 

Everyone? Hitler? Mao? Stalin? Hillary?

 

Yes! - or are you saying that if those people genuinely repented and followed Christ that they would be denied entry into the body?

 

The key is that this transformation of the soul is possible after death, as opposed to being 'locked in place' at the time of death as believed by main-stream Christianity.

 

Sounds like you were a "Christian Universalist" Whatever that is.. but never actually a CHRISTIAN....

 

So how long did you have a relationship with Jesus? (Being a Christian) And why did you decide to start hating him when all he has ever done is love you?

 

ALL Christians , Including every single one who I have ever met KNOW that Jesus is Real and that he is God just like he said he is...

 

So the only reason you could POSSIBLY BE an "Ex Christian" would be that you no longer wished to live by Jesus rules and decided that there is no room in your heart for both You AND Jesus so you made the decision to kick him out and become an "Ex Christian"

I guess it depends on how you want to qualify 'relationship'; I'm quite familiar with how sectarian Christendom can be. In short I've spent many years consistently reading the Bible and other material, praying every day, praying when things come up, and fully believed without reservation even in the face of skeptics. Like I said I grew up in the church, and thus had periods when I was spiritually growing and periods of sliding back (don't we all?), and so my understanding and spiritual state was different at different times during this period. I was not taught Christian universalism; I gained that belief through introspection and revelation, even against the belief of every Christian leader that was personally involved in my life.

 

I too believed without reservation that God was real and Jesus was God and died for my sins; to me it was as sure a thing as the rising of the Sun each day. I lost my faith when I examined my faith and stacked it up against what I knew and what I experienced. Of course I talked to other believers searching for answers, rummaged through scripture, and spent many nights praying, but in the end I was not satisfied with the answers I received. The journey of losing faith took many years, and in the beginning the thought of reality being outside the Christian world-view was ludicrous.

 

It wasn't like "I'm kicking you out Jesus", it was more like "I realize Jesus isn't there, and what I thought was Jesus was my own mind weaving a reality based on what I was taught; superimposing those elements on my experiences and then interpreting those experiences with the bias that those elements are true." It wasn't a conscious decision anymore than you can consciously believe, truly believe, that the Earth is flat.

 

Don't sit there and tell us that the Mindless MYO Mud to Man Myth of Abiogenesis followed by UCA for all flora and Fauna (TOE) convinced you that Jesus is a Myth..

 

The natural sciences had little to do with my deconversion. Sure when I was a kid I read Genesis and such literally; I remember picking up a Bible and turning it to Genesis 1 in order to learn about the physical origins of the universe, Earth, and mankind. I got up to the story of Cain and Able and stopped once the first round of genealogies cropped up, but in my defense I was like 8 years old or so - at the time I just got my first non-kid Bible and was excited. However, when I was a teenager and learning about evolution in school and such I was aware of the creation-evolution debate, and I was nurtured in the theistic evolution mentality.

 

I would say the social sciences, particularly psychology, played a role in my deconversion. I was perfectly happy combining theism with evolution and big bang, and it wasn't until towards the end when contemplating the principle of parsimony and god-of-the-gaps did the natural sciences have any real role, but it would have never been a factor unless other factors pushed me there.

 

If you think that the world wide flood of Noah never happened, how do you explain all of the dinosaurs going extinct suddenly at the same time? And how do you explain that EVERY SINGLE set of Dinosaur remains THAT HAS EVER BEEN Radiometric dated have shown Measureable Carbon 14 content??

 

If they were only 50,000 years old, there should be ZERO but the Data aren't cooperating with you are they??

 

 http://newgeology.us/presentation48.html 

 

That's right, your beloved "Science" has CENSORED this information as it doesn't agree with the 100 Million Year old Paradigm AND time desperately needed to make the slow microbes to microbiologist myth possible..

 

ALSO, AS YOU VERY WELL KNOW

 

We find Red Blood Cells, DNA Fragments, Collagen, and Blood Vessels in Dinosaurs that were supposed to be "100 Million years old"..

 

OOPS

 

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dinosaur-shocker-115306469/

 

But you will NEVER see this in the Biology textbooks...

 

So much for Science searching for truth... LOL     :kaffeetrinker:

 

Dinosaurs went extinct suddenly (in geological time) due to a massive asteroid impact as evidence by things like an iridium layer and micro diamonds.

 

Radiometric dating has an upper limit, like ~50,000 for C14, because after that limit you can't deal with the noise to signal ratio, and even the slightest bit of contamination makes the whole thing go haywire. Last time I checked your radiocarbon dino story it was just some guy that lied to the university to get the dinosaur bones, lied to the lab technicians about what he was doing, and when the technicians told him that the dino bones were laced in shellac preservatives (biologic in origin) so it would interfere with C-14 dating he again lied telling him it wouldn't interfere with his work, and then preceded to tout this radiocarbon date (which dated the shellac preservatives not the dino bone) as evidence dinos lived thousands of years ago. If you want to do something beyond posting a link or copy-paste an article I'd be willing to look into it when I have the time, otherwise I can't be bothered with it.

 

As has been explained ad nauseam by multiple people, of course it is amazing that dehydrated fragments of soft tissue has survived for millions of years, and researchers have studied this phenomena and have come up with variables to help explain this from a combination of the right temperature, moisture, sterility, and chemical matrices locking soft tissue components in a preservative state. Biological decay is known to have many factors involved, yet radiometric decay is known to be virtually constant unless subjected to extreme conditions that aren't found on Earth in any meaningful way.

 

 

"As has been explained ad nauseam by multiple people, of course it is amazing that dehydrated fragments of soft tissue has survived for millions of years,"

 

And not for one second would you stop to think that Ozzams Razor could ever apply here... Because you have been Brainwashed and indoctrinated into it..

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"It was a jab at Christians, not a comment on my own faith. But don't worry, I understand."

 

It doesn't appear that way at all..   You dont know how many of these conversations I have

had with people who claimed to be "Ex Christians" who, after I ask my routine of follow up questions

start to choke, dodge, evade, and change the subject much the same way you have... you see,

God knows our hearts and our intentions, We may be able to fool teachers, friends, wives, cops, and

any and all other humans.. but not God... It wont work..  Lip service and game playing wont cut it..

 

If you call what you described of your "Christianity" as merely a "spec of dust in your eye" then

you are living in denial.. but, living in denial is a prerequisite for the religion of Evolutionism....

 

 

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

 

Galatians 6:7

 

And equally, you don't know how many conversations I have had on this subject either. The only follow up question you asked was 'how long have you had a relationship', and 'why I started to hate God'. The second is a non-starter; I didn't hate anyone, rather I recognized that there was no God listening to my cries/prayers, and I answered the first question with a summary of my faith life - would it really make a difference if I gave you a quantitative answer?

 

You did not understand what I spoke of. Christianity is not a spec of dust; Christians look for any spec of dust in my testimony and use it against me as if finding a spec of dust in my life is proof that I was never a Christian, as if I have to have lived a perfect life to have been a Christian.

 

If it is any consolation every Christian I have had 'deep' conversations with in person say that I cannot be an atheist based on the testimony that I give; I am a pantheist. I would gladly take the pantheist label if it was offered on EFF, but alas the choices are limited and I could very well take "agnostic" without reservation.

 

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Goku there may have been a spark of Christian belief there. The only thing I would say is maturity into Christian belief is not a short process. David Pawson gave a good answer when he said that it takes about seven years to be born again. I was "Christian" in that I believed in a head-way, for about maybe six years and would have sworn had it stopped there I used to genuinely be one, but I couldn't know that I was only a head-Christian.

 

It's a little bit like the Dunning-Krueger effect, people who are incompetent can't know they are incompetent and think themselves more competent than they are, because the skills needed to know you are incompetent, would mean you would have to be competent in order to know your incompetence. :D In the same way, maturity of Christian belief, full belief in the heart, you can only know by true experience and a position of that depth, where you receive genuinely from God, experience miracles, can testify He is there in your life, etc...is something you know as a reality but if you don't know that experience and have head-belief or only a formative level of belief in the mind, it is very, very, very easy to think you were a true Christian in the same way an incompetent person will say he is more than competent.

 

With the Dunning-Krueger effect, studies shown that doing logical puzzles made incompetent people that scored 12% on their quiz tests in logic and other various subjects, made the individuals realise they were less competent, because they struggle to be objective. Incompetent people tend to psychologically have a skewed view of themselves. Competent people tend to have a skewed view of others, and tend to think of themselves as less competent than they really are, believing everyone else to also have their level of competence. 

 

So the cure here seemed to be more competence, more education. In the same way if you had followed through on Christian belief it seems likely you would then have realised your formative beliefs were only of an immature level. 

 

In other words, for me - God shocked me. I thought as a formative Christian that it was basically in my head, kind of like this; "I''l pray to God and hope for the best, and well, you never know he might be there." But I wouldn't expect any genuine answer to prayer, and I didn't even know that was something people experienced. Then later on it was like this; "holy cow, God is actually there, all this stuff is genuinely happening to me."

 

So for you to say, "I realised God wasn't there", is something you will never hear in a Christian testimony, for if I quit now and became atheist that wouldn't be my answer my answer would have to be this; "He genuinely answered, or that's what it seemed to me, but I suppose now as an atheist I have to say that He didn't really answer."

 

THAT would be the response of a genuine Christian. Now I am positive you are honest, and genuinely believe you were a Christian, but remember, your atheism influences you to believe there is no genuine Christian experience, so you are free to believe the Christian belief is only the head-belief people have, and nothing more.

 

(I'm not attacking you, that's just my view. I am always sceptical when atheists say they were Christian, they don't mean the same thing as we would mean but I'm not calling you a liar.)

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Goku there may have been a spark of Christian belief there. The only thing I would say is maturity into Christian belief is not a short process. David Pawson gave a good answer when he said that it takes about seven years to be born again. I was "Christian" in that I believed in a head-way, for about maybe six years and would have sworn had it stopped there I used to genuinely be one, but I couldn't know that I was only a head-Christian.

 

Like I said I was raised Christian; my entire family is really big into being Christian. I didn't have merely a head belief; I truly believed with my heart. I was a firm believer for the first 20 to 21 years of my life, and it took a few more years after my first serious doubts to have no faith of any kind. 

 

So the cure here seemed to be more competence, more education. In the same way if you had followed through on Christian belief it seems likely you would then have realised your formative beliefs were only of an immature level. 

 

In other words, for me - God shocked me. I thought as a formative Christian that it was basically in my head, kind of like this; "I''l pray to God and hope for the best, and well, you never know he might be there." But I wouldn't expect any genuine answer to prayer, and I didn't even know that was something people experienced. Then later on it was like this; "holy cow, God is actually there, all this stuff is genuinely happening to me."

 

But that was not how I viewed it during my faith life. It wasn't a question of "if God is there" or "if God will hear and answer my prayer"; I knew God was there and God was going to answer my prayer one way or another. I did believe God genuinely answered prayers and that it was happening in my life and those around me.

 

As for the Dunning-Kruger effect the 'cure' for not recognizing your own incompetence is to get 'better' so you can more accurately assess where you stand. So what is the cure for not recognizing my Christian incompetence? Reading/studying the Bible, praying, worship, fellowship, repentance, helping the poor, evangelism? I did all those things with a cheerful heart; I even led a ministry out of my old church to draw people in the community to Christ. Of course I wasn't perfect and could have been more thorough in such things, but you are dead wrong if you think my faith was merely head-belief that I had to give lip service to once a week for an hour.

 

So for you to say, "I realised God wasn't there", is something you will never hear in a Christian testimony, for if I quit now and became atheist that wouldn't be my answer my answer would have to be this; "He genuinely answered, or that's what it seemed to me, but I suppose now as an atheist I have to say that He didn't really answer."

 

THAT would be the response of a genuine Christian. Now I am positive you are honest, and genuinely believe you were a Christian, but remember, your atheism influences you to believe there is no genuine Christian experience, so you are free to believe the Christian belief is only the head-belief people have, and nothing more.

 

(I'm not attacking you, that's just my view. I am always sceptical when atheists say they were Christian, they don't mean the same thing as we would mean but I'm not calling you a liar.)

 

What's the difference between saying "I realized God wasn't there", versus "I thought he genuinely answered, but as an atheist I believe he didn't really answer (because the definition of atheist means that "God is not there")? All you did was take the idea in my short sentence and expanded it into a longer sentence.

 

While on the topic of psychology, you seem to be projecting your experiences and understanding as a nominal Christian onto my own faith life.

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Goku: What's the difference between saying "I realized God wasn't there", versus "I thought he genuinely answered, but as an atheist I believe he didn't really answer (because the definition of atheist means that "God is not there")? All you did was take the idea in my short sentence and expanded it into a longer sentence.

 

No you said you came to realise God wasn't there. You see you should watch Judge Judy, she always says that if something doesn't sound realistic, then it probably isn't true. Especially those things people give away by tacit admission. Like when someone says when she asks, "when you and your partner are together, did you say it was a loan?" They might say, "yes, I said, 'it's a loan but you must pay it back and we have to have a contract".

 

You see that's just not something people say to each other. Would I right now if I wanted a favour from my dad, say, "can I borrow your car please, and now sign this contract saying it's okay if I crash it". No - only if there was a falling out between those people would contracts come to mind.

 

It doesn't sound realistic to me, that if I became an atheist today I would say, "I realise God wasn't there", because the problem is, when you realise God is there by revelation when you are born again, having experienced God's presence, experienced miracles, how can you then logically "realise" God is not there?

 

That is like saying, "I realised the the person I was emailing was there when he emailed me back giving specific answers to me, but now I have come to realise he was not there."

 

Nah....isn't something I'd say - to be atheist now I would just admit it was a willful decision DESPITE the fact God clearly has revealed Himself to me. I can't "realise" He's not there, beyond simply convincing myself He isn't against all of the proof He has shown me.

 

So what I'm saying is that you can only state the thing, "I realised God wasn't there", if you never knew God to begin with.

 

I don't believe you knew the Lord. Now I may be wrong but I just don't believe you did. I believe you think that being a Christian is this;

 

 

 

Goku: Like I said I was raised Christian; my entire family is really big into being Christian. I didn't have merely a head belief; I truly believed with my heart.. Reading/studying the Bible, praying, worship, fellowship, repentance, helping the poor, evangelism? I did all those things with a cheerful heart;

 

Jesus said He would say to those who say all these things, "depart from me for I never knew you." You can do all these things without knowing the Lord!

 

The one thing you don't say Goku, the first thing every Christian says, is that He knows the Lord to a point where we can't help but say he has revealed Himself to us beyond reasonable doubt. It's not a list of things you do, but once you know and have spiritual revelation of God's existence, you can't then say "I realised God wasn't there." And this is the peculiar thing, that in Christendom right now as we speak, there are people who believe genuinely they are Christian but aren't. They need to seek what I am talking about, they need to come to God and genuinely believe He is there and expect Him to answer.

 

If I were to do that right now today, I would never say that because you can't "realise" the negative, you can't realise something nobody can technically know.

 

That is the secret of faith, God reveals Himself to us personally so logically we can know God is there, but we can never know He isn't there.

 

So for a person whom God doesn't reveal Himself to, they just know that they don't know whether God is there, but a person that knows God is there can't get to the position of "knowing" He isn't.

 

EXAMPLE;

 

I left something in a room. Paul looks in the room and knows it's an apple, he can't say, "I know there isn't an apple". Sarah says, "I wasn't in the room, I came to realise there was no apple, however."

 

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT. Wrong answer - :gotcha:

 

HOWEVER, I think we can have a concession. Because you said you were a Christian but you never knew the Lord since you say you realise He isn't there, it seems that psychologically you can't know what you don't know, like with the Dunning-Krueger, which is all I meant, I just meant because someone doesn't know that being a Christian involves knowing the Lord, they will testify that they were Christian because they now believe to be one only requires that list you gave me.

 

So you were a Christian in the sense that you lived like one, like if you were sent to live with indians you may act like an indian and chase the buffalo and so forth, but I still think basically you are operating from an atheist-assumption, that this list of actions is all it means to be a Christian. Since you are a p/atheist, you obviously do presently believe that the Christian experience isn't genuine and there is no genuine fellowship with God. Don't tell me your answer now would be that there is a genuine experience and God really exists? Obviously you can't give that answer as a pantheist. So then that means that right now you can say you were a Christian because you don't believe the experience is genuine. But we testify that it is genuine, so then, how can you say it was true and now isn't? It seems to me therefore, you believe you were a Christian, because now you don't believe it is the genuine truth and all atheists must if they are atheist, believe it isn't a genuine experiencial truth and experience of God. But we testify that it is, and we could never testify otherwise.

 

I am open to the possibility you can somehow know the Lord then reject Him because of what a certain scripture says, I am certainly not calling you a liar, I believe you believe you were a Christian and I hold to the possibility that you may have been, it's just that it will always be hard for me to accept a claim like that because the chances are so high that God didn't bother to reveal Himself to that person knowing they would later fall away. It just doesn't make sense that God would invest in someone heavily, knowing they would fall away. Can you appreciate my difficulty?

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No you said you came to realise God wasn't there. You see you should watch Judge Judy, she always says that if something doesn't sound realistic, then it probably isn't true. Especially those things people give away by tacit admission. Like when someone says when she asks, "when you and your partner are together, did you say it was a loan?" They might say, "yes, I said, 'it's a loan but you must pay it back and we have to have a contract".

 

You see that's just not something people say to each other. Would I right now if I wanted a favour from my dad, say, "can I borrow your car please, and now sign this contract saying it's okay if I crash it". No - only if there was a falling out between those people would contracts come to mind.

 

It doesn't sound realistic to me, that if I became an atheist today I would say, "I realise God wasn't there", because the problem is, when you realise God is there by revelation when you are born again, having experienced God's presence, experienced miracles, how can you then logically "realise" God is not there?

 

That is like saying, "I realised the the person I was emailing was there when he emailed me back giving specific answers to me, but now I have come to realise he was not there."

 

Nah....isn't something I'd say - to be atheist now I would just admit it was a willful decision DESPITE the fact God clearly has revealed Himself to me. I can't "realise" He's not there, beyond simply convincing myself He isn't against all of the proof He has shown me.

 

So what I'm saying is that you can only state the thing, "I realised God wasn't there", if you never knew God to begin with.

 

I don't believe you knew the Lord. Now I may be wrong but I just don't believe you did. I believe you think that being a Christian is this;

 

You do know the definition of atheism, right? - that God does not exist. If you became an atheist today you would, by definition, say "I now realize God wasn't there", or something to that effect.

 

How does one go from believing they experienced the presence of God, believed they witnessed miracles in their life and the life of others, to being a non-believer? For me the short version is that a bunch of things didn't add up, and as I learned more about psychology and other things I saw more and more of an alternative reality where those experiences were not the result of divine province, rather a combination of natural phenomena and psychology.

 

Of course as I became more and more desperate I cried out to God to give me a sign, something I could not deny that would mend the damage to my faith, and renew my confidence. No such sign ever came, and eventually it wasn't something I could consciously decide; you cannot force yourself to believe something that you know ain't so, at least not without a ton of brainwashing. For me it wasn't a choice, it just, was.

 

Jesus said He would say to those who say all these things, "depart from me for I never knew you." You can do all these things without knowing the Lord!

 

The one thing you don't say Goku, the first thing every Christian says, is that He knows the Lord to a point where we can't help but say he has revealed Himself to us beyond reasonable doubt. It's not a list of things you do, but once you know and have spiritual revelation of God's existence, you can't then say "I realised God wasn't there." And this is the peculiar thing, that in Christendom right now as we speak, there are people who believe genuinely they are Christian but aren't. They need to seek what I am talking about, they need to come to God and genuinely believe He is there and expect Him to answer.

 

But you didn't ask me what makes someone Christian; I was responding to the idea that I needed to be "educated" and "follow through on Christian belief" and that my beliefs were "only of an immature level". So, how does one go about being educated and following through on Christian belief so that it is no longer immature?

 

How does one establish a relationship with God, grow and maintain it? How does one come to God? I did genuinely believe and expected God to answer my prayers, keep me safe, and so on.

 

If I were to do that right now today, I would never say that because you can't "realise" the negative, you can't realise something nobody can technically know.

 

Sure you can; I'm not talking about absolute proof - just my own experiences from my perspective.

 

HOWEVER, I think we can have a concession. Because you said you were a Christian but you never knew the Lord since you say you realise He isn't there, it seems that psychologically you can't know what you don't know, like with the Dunning-Krueger, which is all I meant, I just meant because someone doesn't know that being a Christian involves knowing the Lord, they will testify that they were Christian because they now believe to be one only requires that list you gave me.

 

I didn't say that; again you are projecting your nominal Christian experience onto my own faith experience. If you asked me when I was a Christian I would have said I knew God. I was not answering the question of "what makes a Christian".

 

So you were a Christian in the sense that you lived like one, like if you were sent to live with indians you may act like an indian and chase the buffalo and so forth, but I still think basically you are operating from an atheist-assumption, that this list of actions is all it means to be a Christian. Since you are a p/atheist, you obviously do presently believe that the Christian experience isn't genuine and there is no genuine fellowship with God. Don't tell me your answer now would be that there is a genuine experience and God really exists? Obviously you can't give that answer as a pantheist. So then that means that right now you can say you were a Christian because you don't believe the experience is genuine. But we testify that it is genuine, so then, how can you say it was true and now isn't? It seems to me therefore, you believe you were a Christian, because now you don't believe it is the genuine truth and all atheists must if they are atheist, believe it isn't a genuine experiencial truth and experience of God. But we testify that it is, and we could never testify otherwise.

 

I am open to the possibility you can somehow know the Lord then reject Him because of what a certain scripture says, I am certainly not calling you a liar, I believe you believe you were a Christian and I hold to the possibility that you may have been, it's just that it will always be hard for me to accept a claim like that because the chances are so high that God didn't bother to reveal Himself to that person knowing they would later fall away. It just doesn't make sense that God would invest in someone heavily, knowing they would fall away. Can you appreciate my difficulty?

 

It's really a simple answer: I used to think it was a genuine experience, but no more, and obviously as a Christian yourself you think the experience is genuine just as I did. I understand, from your perspective, that as a genuine experience it is hard to imagine that someone with such an experience could become a non-believer. As I said multiple times it didn't happen over night, but it took many years. You can't put your spiritual state up against the prospect of atheism in one fell swoop. It may work if you were a nominal Christian that didn't care, but from my experience as well as the testimony of other former Christians in which Christianity was a big part of their life, it is a transformation that takes multiple years from start to finish. It was a slow erosion of faith over time.

 

Can you appreciate that I truly believed, and when I had serious doubts that had been accreting for years I prayed for God to give me a sign, and all I got was silence?

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Goku: It's really a simple answer: I used to think it was a genuine experience, but no more, and obviously as a Christian yourself you think the experience is genuine just as I did

 

But this presumes our experience was the same and I think that is the fault in your argument. Psychology and natural phenomena can't answer for my experience, of course to argue begging the question you could say, "you haven't discovered that yet", but again that presumes and equal experience.

 

I couldn't ever say to myself that the things that have happened to me could be caused by those false things. This is the problem, I don't think having heard testimonies into the hundreds of the Christian faith, that my fellow Christians could ever come to your position. 

 

 

 

Goku:  You do know the definition of atheism, right? - that God does not exist. If you became an atheist today you would, by definition, say "I now realize God wasn't there", or something to that effect.

 

But that's my very point, I couldn't because I would have to lie..meaning those who are Christians get to a point where they wouldn't be able to say this.

 

 

 

Goku: How does one go from believing they experienced the presence of God, believed they witnessed miracles in their life and the life of others, to being a non-believer? For me the short version is that a bunch of things didn't add up,

 

But that presumes you were a born again believer. You don't believe a born again experience exists, the version you say was Christianity isn't our experience because we have to admit to be genuinely born again is to be changed forever. 

 

Now looking back you will say there is no born again experience so from your atheist position, you have to say that you didn't experience the born again experience spiritually and that it was unreal in some way, you can only say that your experience you believe was the born again experience, which is actually psychology and natural phenomena. But that isn't the born again experience.

 

I think you just don't get it. If you think what you experienced wasn't a genuine born again experience then you didn't experience a genuine born again experience because those who do testify to that experience can only testify that it is true.

 

So to even now think it wasn't genuine indicates you weren't genuinely born again. But from your perspective you experienced everything that Christians experience, as far as you know in your own mind, you qualified as one. This is true of many people, I experienced it myself, I even explained that. There are testimonies of people who were catholic or whatever, for very many years who thought they were Christian as you describe. How can you know you were a genuinely born again Christian? Logically there is nothing stopping you from concluding you were a Christian if you believe your "faith" ticked all the boxes, so it seems to me you are INSISTING on something you yourself can't know.

 

Why, my inner lawyer asks me? Why doth the lady protest too much? Call me a cynical Columbo but it seems rather obvious, there is a definite advantage in saying, "been there got the t-shirt, yep, it's false". This gives the illusion that you know something we don't know. 

 

 

 

 Goku: As I said multiple times it didn't happen over night, but it took many years. You can't put your spiritual state up against the prospect of atheism in one fell swoop.

 

 

 

Goku: I was a firm believer for the first 20 to 21 years of my life

 

That isn't a figure that makes sense. It seems you are trying to give as big a number as you can. Anything before 18 years I can't see as being above the age of accountability in any serious way, are you saying you came out of the womb proclaiming Christianity for example? I think a more honest figure if you weren't trying to urinate down mikey's back and tell him it's a rainin' is that you were as an adult a "Christian" from 18 years of age to 21 years of age. Oh yeah, you were Billy Graham alright after three adult years of Christianity.

 

Goku, I mean come on seriously? I have been a Christian since I was 17 but I didn't fully understand I was Christian until about 22 years of age, the mind doesn't fully mature scientifically, until 25. I can tell you after twenty years of Christianity, maturity as a Christian, following God, going through various trials, isn't something that happens over night, so when you say; "As I said multiple times it didn't happen over night, but it took many years" I'm not fooled. Many years of what, watching spongebob squarepants? 

 

 

 

Goku: Can you appreciate that I truly believed, and when I had serious doubts that had been accreting for years I prayed for God to give me a sign, and all I got was silence?

 

Well the problem is when a Christian says things like this God usually answers with Hebrews 11. "without faith it is impossible to please God". You said you believed for many years and also doubted for years, but only believed for three years as an adult, so this indicates the true issue, that you didn't really have any faith in God if you doubted for years. Given you were only early twenties this is very much, "formative" immature levels of Christianity. 

 

You say you only got silence but didn't you ever open the bible to scriptures like this, "for we live by faith not by sight."? God doesn't answer me all of the time, that's simply not how God operates, we don't predicate God's existence on how silent or non-silent God is. God can turn up at any moment and usually does, He's God, He is the one Who dictates things. Are you sure you were not the one playing god and telling God what He should and shouldn't do? And you can't deny your doubts led you to disbelief, not your, "faith".

 

God was silent? But it isn't a mature level of faith to have such formative doubts, to have faith belittled and affected so easily by such limited factors as psychology and natural phenomena. This indicates immaturity, not maturity, do you think the likes of Charles Stanley a believer for 60 years of faith, would have doubts to the level like you had? Lol, any Christian of any maturity knows this is only the formative stage, the doubting of God's very existence to such levels is the milk-stage, it would raise a smile with any mature Christian because we look back to those baby stages of faith and realise where we were at that stage.

 

 

 

Goku: Can you appreciate that I truly believed

 

But this is the thing, you can believe, and not have anything seriously deep happen in the heart which changes you for life, and obviously you can't claim you had a life-changer can you, because you're now atheist. So yes in some way you probably did believe but didn't realise you had issues in your heart which might have closed the door on it ever truly beginning. Christ talks of this in the parable of the sower, that offence can come and snatch the word out of the heart before it ever takes root. And you clearly admit the doubts were there for, "years".

 

Each atheists wants to think they have taken a path so they can tell us the had the t-shirt and have found God isn't true but you really haven't taken my path because for me it is life changing to the point there is no going back. "No man putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God" - Jesus Christ.

 

The true experience is to believe, and by faith and patience inherit the promises, Goku. You can't claim to have done that. All those who truly are of God, born of God and come forth by the will of God, believe to salvation. You can still believe that though to your mind obviously it seems you have reached a place where you have hardened your heart it seems and thoroughly convinced yourself of all kinds of things which just were never true. The most absurd thing you say is you come to, "know" God isn't there, but logically that's not even possible, you can't know someone is not in a house if you can never look inside it. How can you "know" something based on ignorance? :smashfreak: Even if every Christian argument was bad or wrong, that wouldn't mean you could conclude you know that. (the bad argument fallacy)

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"but what they all have in common is that everyone goes to Heaven when they die."

 

Everyone? Hitler? Mao? Stalin? Hillary?

 

Yes! - or are you saying that if those people genuinely repented and followed Christ that they would be denied entry into the body?

 

The key is that this transformation of the soul is possible after death, as opposed to being 'locked in place' at the time of death as believed by main-stream Christianity.

 

Sounds like you were a "Christian Universalist" Whatever that is.. but never actually a CHRISTIAN....

So how long did you have a relationship with Jesus? (Being a Christian) And why did you decide to start hating him when all he has ever done is love you?[/size]

 

ALL Christians , Including every single one who I have ever met KNOW that Jesus is Real and that he is God just like he said he is... [/size]

 

So the only reason you could POSSIBLY BE an "Ex Christian" would be that you no longer wished to live by Jesus rules and decided that there is no room in your heart for both You AND Jesus so you made the decision to kick him out and become an "Ex Christian"[/size]

 

I guess it depends on how you want to qualify 'relationship'; I'm quite familiar with how sectarian Christendom can be. In short I've spent many years consistently reading the Bible and other material, praying every day, praying when things come up, and fully believed without reservation even in the face of skeptics. Like I said I grew up in the church, and thus had periods when I was spiritually growing and periods of sliding back (don't we all?), and so my understanding and spiritual state was different at different times during this period. I was not taught Christian universalism; I gained that belief through introspection and revelation, even against the belief of every Christian leader that was personally involved in my life.

 

I too believed without reservation that God was real and Jesus was God and died for my sins; to me it was as sure a thing as the rising of the Sun each day. I lost my faith when I examined my faith and stacked it up against what I knew and what I experienced. Of course I talked to other believers searching for answers, rummaged through scripture, and spent many nights praying, but in the end I was not satisfied with the answers I received. The journey of losing faith took many years, and in the beginning the thought of reality being outside the Christian world-view was ludicrous.

 

It wasn't like "I'm kicking you out Jesus", it was more like "I realize Jesus isn't there, and what I thought was Jesus was my own mind weaving a reality based on what I was taught; superimposing those elements on my experiences and then interpreting those experiences with the bias that those elements are true." It wasn't a conscious decision anymore than you can consciously believe, truly believe, that the Earth is flat.

 

Don't sit there and tell us that the Mindless MYO Mud to Man Myth of Abiogenesis followed by UCA for all flora and Fauna (TOE) convinced you that Jesus is a Myth..[/size]

 

The natural sciences had little to do with my deconversion. Sure when I was a kid I read Genesis and such literally; I remember picking up a Bible and turning it to Genesis 1 in order to learn about the physical origins of the universe, Earth, and mankind. I got up to the story of Cain and Able and stopped once the first round of genealogies cropped up, but in my defense I was like 8 years old or so - at the time I just got my first non-kid Bible and was excited. However, when I was a teenager and learning about evolution in school and such I was aware of the creation-evolution debate, and I was nurtured in the theistic evolution mentality.

 

I would say the social sciences, particularly psychology, played a role in my deconversion. I was perfectly happy combining theism with evolution and big bang, and it wasn't until towards the end when contemplating the principle of parsimony and god-of-the-gaps did the natural sciences have any real role, but it would have never been a factor unless other factors pushed me there.

 

If you think that the world wide flood of Noah never happened, how do you explain all of the dinosaurs going extinct suddenly at the same time? And how do you explain that EVERY SINGLE set of Dinosaur remains THAT HAS EVER BEEN Radiometric dated have shown Measureable Carbon 14 content??[/size]

 

If they were only 50,000 years old, there should be ZERO but the Data aren't cooperating with you are they??[/size]

 

[/size]http://newgeology.us/presentation48.html [/size]

 

That's right, your beloved "Science" has CENSORED this information as it doesn't agree with the 100 Million Year old Paradigm AND time desperately needed to make the slow microbes to microbiologist myth possible..[/size]

 

ALSO, AS YOU VERY WELL KNOW[/size]

 

We find Red Blood Cells, DNA Fragments, Collagen, and Blood Vessels in Dinosaurs that were supposed to be "100 Million years old"..[/size]

 

OOPS[/size]

 

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dinosaur-shocker-115306469/

 

But you will NEVER see this in the Biology textbooks...[/size]

 

So much for Science searching for truth... LOL :kaffeetrinker:[/size][/size]

 

Dinosaurs went extinct suddenly (in geological time) due to a massive asteroid impact as evidence by things like an iridium layer and micro diamonds.

 

Radiometric dating has an upper limit, like ~50,000 for C14, because after that limit you can't deal with the noise to signal ratio, and even the slightest bit of contamination makes the whole thing go haywire. Last time I checked your radiocarbon dino story it was just some guy that lied to the university to get the dinosaur bones, lied to the lab technicians about what he was doing, and when the technicians told him that the dino bones were laced in shellac preservatives (biologic in origin) so it would interfere with C-14 dating he again lied telling him it wouldn't interfere with his work, and then preceded to tout this radiocarbon date (which dated the shellac preservatives not the dino bone) as evidence dinos lived thousands of years ago. If you want to do something beyond posting a link or copy-paste an article I'd be willing to look into it when I have the time, otherwise I can't be bothered with it.

 

As has been explained ad nauseam by multiple people, of course it is amazing that dehydrated fragments of soft tissue has survived for millions of years, and researchers have studied this phenomena and have come up with variables to help explain this from a combination of the right temperature, moisture, sterility, and chemical matrices locking soft tissue components in a preservative state. Biological decay is known to have many factors involved, yet radiometric decay is known to be virtually constant unless subjected to extreme conditions that aren't found on Earth in any meaningful way.

"but what they all have in common is that everyone goes to Heaven when they die."

 

Everyone? Hitler? Mao? Stalin? Hillary?

 

"Yes! - or are you saying that if those people genuinely repented and followed Christ that they would be denied entry into the body?"

 

"The key is that this transformation of the soul is possible after death, as opposed to being 'locked in place' at the time of death as believed by main-stream Christianity."

 

Sounds like your version destroys the idea of Faith and Free Will..

 

The problem is, none of this is Biblical either of course, but neither is Evolution which you probably tried to shoehorn into your religion of Christian Universalism" (Whatever that is) as well along with calling Jesus a liar about the flood of Noah and the requirement of being "Born Again"..

 

Of course this is speculation but I would wager I am not far off... I have had many of these types of conversations with people who claim "I used to be a Christian" only to find that their idea of "Christianity" was quite different then what Jesus laid out for us. I invariably find "Ex Christians" people who called God a liar about HIS creation AND tried to make God conform to THEIR will instead of conforming to HIS... I immediately confronted your assertion NOT for what YOU believe as I dont care.. I only do it for OTHER PEOPLE who might read your post and get the idea that you really WERE a Christian...

 

Of course you will dispute what I say.. But again, this post is not for your benefit, but for any lurkers out there who need to know the truth.

 

"Scientists who utterly reject Evolution may be one of our fastest growing controversial minorities...Many of the scientists supporting this position hold impressive credentials in science."

 

(Larry Hatfield, "Educators Against Darwin," Science Digest Special)

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"but what they all have in common is that everyone goes to Heaven when they die."

Everyone? Hitler? Mao? Stalin? Hillary?

 

"Yes! - or are you saying that if those people genuinely repented and followed Christ that they would be denied entry into the body?"

 

"The key is that this transformation of the soul is possible after death, as opposed to being 'locked in place' at the time of death as believed by main-stream Christianity."

 

Sounds like your version destroys the idea of Faith and Free Will..

 

The problem is, none of this is Biblical either of course, but neither is Evolution which you probably tried to shoehorn into your religion of Christian Universalism" (Whatever that is) as well along with calling Jesus a liar about the flood of Noah and the requirement of being "Born Again"..

 

So your version is believe in this world or burn in Hell forever while God plays pussyfoots with non-believers?

 

My version doesn't destroy free will. It allows people to reap what they sow, and then offers a better existence through repentance, even after death, for God is not bound by such limitations. Why shouldn't the parable of the prodigal son carry over beyond the grave? Is your God not that powerful? Or is he just ticked off if you don't believe in this life like a whiny toddler?

 

I guess it depends on what you mean by "faith"; usually that means belief without sufficient evidence. Sure, if God purifies your heart in Hell I guess it is possible faith in that sense may not be a requirement. Faith can also mean the assurance/conviction of things hoped for, but yet not seen (Hebrews 11:1). I would not venture a guess on exactly what Hell is like in that respect, but I would imagine that the hope of being in Heaven once you have been purified is something not yet seen and something you must believe on faith in that respect.

 

Hell is not something frequently talked about in scripture, and Christian universalists will direct you to Biblical passages to support their position while leaning on the original Greek, not the clumsy English or Latin translation. Of course you can disagree when it comes to interpretation, and of course Christian universalists will disagree with your interpretation and say that the Bible is amenable to their interpretation, if not outright confirms it.

 

"Born again" is not something dismissed. What is being born again? - in simple terms it is accepting Jesus Christ into their hearts, repenting of sin, and following Christ in such a way as to be likened to being "born again". How could any of this be denied after death unless God is not all that powerful, or if God was a pouting child not willing to allow such things? So, either your God is not GOD, or your God has the morality of a pouting child.

 

It seems you don't understand the point of allegory yet.

 

Of course this is speculation but I would wager I am not far off... I have had many of these types of conversations with people who claim "I used to be a Christian" only to find that their idea of "Christianity" was quite different then what Jesus laid out for us. I invariably find "Ex Christians" people who called God a liar about HIS creation AND tried to make God conform to THEIR will instead of conforming to HIS... I immediately confronted your assertion NOT for what YOU believe as I dont care.. I only do it for OTHER PEOPLE who might read your post and get the idea that you really WERE a Christian...

Of course you will dispute what I say.. But again, this post is not for your benefit, but for any lurkers out there who need to know the truth.

 

"Scientists who utterly reject Evolution may be one of our fastest growing controversial minorities...Many of the scientists supporting this position hold impressive credentials in science."

 

(Larry Hatfield, "Educators Against Darwin," Science Digest Special)

 

Well my belief of Christianity took many evolutions; at one point I was a vanilla believer like the rest, but things didn't make any sense so I amended my beliefs, and ended up as a non-believer. Christian universalism was towards the end, but certainly a prominent motif when I could no longer accept the barbaric beliefs of main-stream Christianity. I had a choice: either believe God is an evil worse than Hitler, or a being more great than any hatred or evil that the human heart could manifest, and I chose the latter. Concepts of justice, mercy, and love are fulfilled within Christian universalism. That is a God worth laboring for - not some psychopathic maniac tormenting everyone after death because they didn't believe in the rib story with zero evidence and all the evidence in the world demonstrating it as a fairy tale.

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"but what they all have in common is that everyone goes to Heaven when they die."

 

Everyone? Hitler? Mao? Stalin? Hillary?

"Yes! - or are you saying that if those people genuinely repented and followed Christ that they would be denied entry into the body?"

"The key is that this transformation of the soul is possible after death, as opposed to being 'locked in place' at the time of death as believed by main-stream Christianity."

Sounds like your version destroys the idea of Faith and Free Will..

The problem is, none of this is Biblical either of course, but neither is Evolution which you probably tried to shoehorn into your religion of Christian Universalism" (Whatever that is) as well along with calling Jesus a liar about the flood of Noah and the requirement of being "Born Again"..

 

 

So your version is believe in this world or burn in Hell forever while God plays pussyfoots with non-believers?

 

My version doesn't destroy free will. It allows people to reap what they sow, and then offers a better existence through repentance, even after death, for God is not bound by such limitations. Why shouldn't the parable of the prodigal son carry over beyond the grave? Is your God not that powerful? Or is he just ticked off if you don't believe in this life like a whiny toddler?

 

I guess it depends on what you mean by "faith"; usually that means belief without sufficient evidence. Sure, if God purifies your heart in Hell I guess it is possible faith in that sense may not be a requirement. Faith can also mean the assurance/conviction of things hoped for, but yet not seen (Hebrews 11:1). I would not venture a guess on exactly what Hell is like in that respect, but I would imagine that the hope of being in Heaven once you have been purified is something not yet seen and something you must believe on faith in that respect.

 

Hell is not something frequently talked about in scripture, and Christian universalists will direct you to Biblical passages to support their position while leaning on the original Greek, not the clumsy English or Latin translation. Of course you can disagree when it comes to interpretation, and of course Christian universalists will disagree with your interpretation and say that the Bible is amenable to their interpretation, if not outright confirms it.

 

"Born again" is not something dismissed. What is being born again? - in simple terms it is accepting Jesus Christ into their hearts, repenting of sin, and following Christ in such a way as to be likened to being "born again". How could any of this be denied after death unless God is not all that powerful, or if God was a pouting child not willing to allow such things? So, either your God is not GOD, or your God has the morality of a pouting child.

 

It seems you don't understand the point of allegory yet.

 

Of course this is speculation but I would wager I am not far off... I have had many of these types of conversations with people who claim "I used to be a Christian" only to find that their idea of "Christianity" was quite different then what Jesus laid out for us. I invariably find "Ex Christians" people who called God a liar about HIS creation AND tried to make God conform to THEIR will instead of conforming to HIS... I immediately confronted your assertion NOT for what YOU believe as I dont care.. I only do it for OTHER PEOPLE who might read your post and get the idea that you really WERE a Christian...

 

Of course you will dispute what I say.. But again, this post is not for your benefit, but for any lurkers out there who need to know the truth.

"Scientists who utterly reject Evolution may be one of our fastest growing controversial minorities...Many of the scientists supporting this position hold impressive credentials in science."

(Larry Hatfield, "Educators Against Darwin," Science Digest Special)

 

 

Well my belief of Christianity took many evolutions; at one point I was a vanilla believer like the rest, but things didn't make any sense so I amended my beliefs, and ended up as a non-believer. Christian universalism was towards the end, but certainly a prominent motif when I could no longer accept the barbaric beliefs of main-stream Christianity. I had a choice: either believe God is an evil worse than Hitler, or a being more great than any hatred or evil that the human heart could manifest, and I chose the latter. Concepts of justice, mercy, and love are fulfilled within Christian universalism. That is a God worth laboring for - not some psychopathic maniac tormenting everyone after death because they didn't believe in the rib story with zero evidence and all the evidence in the world demonstrating it as a fairy tale.

 

 

Like I said.. My response to your post wasnt FOR you, It was to EXPOSE you to anyone who might be reading these blogs..

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Like I said.. My response to your post wasnt FOR you, It was to EXPOSE you to anyone who might be reading these blogs..

 

Well, I honestly can't fault you when your LORD is a crazy maniacal fiend. As a Christian universalist, I believe God will grant you mercy and take you under his wing in a loving manner. I would love to talk to you in Heaven, that's what I would say, if I could force myself to believe. But I do believe if there is a God out there that he would be more kind than the God you have imagined, and he would accept your flaws and fashion them into his greatness.

 

My only hope is that you experience the joy of knowing the true God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob; the true God of knowledge and mercy, and that which will never forsake you for an immature decision. May you be blessed for all your days.

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Like I said.. My response to your post wasnt FOR you, It was to EXPOSE you to anyone who might be reading these blogs..

 

Well, I honestly can't fault you when your LORD is a crazy maniacal fiend. As a Christian universalist, I believe God will grant you mercy and take you under his wing in a loving manner. I would love to talk to you in Heaven, that's what I would say, if I could force myself to believe. But I do believe if there is a God out there that he would be more kind than the God you have imagined, and he would accept your flaws and fashion them into his greatness.

 

My only hope is that you experience the joy of knowing the true God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob; the true God of knowledge and mercy, and that which will never forsake you for an immature decision. May you be blessed for all your days.

 

 

                                                                                                                                                                        "As a Christian universalist," I believe...

 

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  • Age: 25
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  • Atheist
  • USA

 

 

                                                                                                                       Hmm.. Looks like "Christian Universalist" is the same as an Atheist.. Just what I suspected all along..

                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                           Jesus warned us for a reason...

 

 

                                                                                                              15Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

                                                                                                             16By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 

                                                                                                                       17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.…Matt 7

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                                                                                                                                                                        "As a Christian universalist," I believe...

 

  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 25
  • no affiliation
  • Atheist
  • USA

 

 

                                                                                                                       Hmm.. Looks like "Christian Universalist" is the same as an Atheist.. Just what I suspected all along..

                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                           Jesus warned us for a reason...

 

 

                                                                                                              15Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

                                                                                                             16By their  you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 

                                                                                                                       17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.…Matt 7

 

 

 

Are you that confused that you need the Lord's blessing to understand that my answer is that of an atheist and not of a believer, wow, you must really be hurting. My apologies for making you utilize your cognitive powers. You do understand that my "Christian universalism" is before my atheism, right?

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Goku said:

Are you that confused that you need the Lord's blessing to understand that my answer is that of an atheist and not of a believer, wow, you must really be hurting. My apologies for making you utilize your cognitive a there is one!powers. You do understand that my "Christian universalism" is before my atheism, right?

Wrong, You are a believer--in the idea that you think you have god like qualities. Anyone can create a belief and then choose to believe it. We all do that! You created the idea there is no God. And I created the idea there is one. You are not going to out create me because we are equalls. Creativity is our commonalit
and bottom linne!

I would imagine you think anyone that differs with you is wrong. But I accept that you exist and am not agnostic about it. I do not believe you have the capacity to determine who can't exist which is why I contend you attribute to yourself qualities of the being you claim does not exist!

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