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#1 ikester7579

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Posted 07 April 2007 - 12:26 AM

As some of you know, for a while now I have been trying to explain how creation worked before the first sin was committed which made everything the way that it is today. The problem with explanations sometimes is that even though I may understand it, and how it works. Putting it into words where others can understand it as well can be difficult.

I guess I got the idea of how science ponders theories, and then try to put them into words. Because if you can ponder and idea, make it work in your mind. When you try and sell it to the public, or your peers. If you cannot make it understandable. You have lost more than half the battle. Because what is not understood, cannot be comprehended. And therefore cannot be sold in the minds of people who read it as a understandable idea.

So this will be my third attempt to explain what eternal creation is in a more understandable way. My goal is to put into words of what I understand about it, and make the readers here also understand and see what I see. Not so much to convince each reader that I am right, but to allow them to see that there is another way to explain how creation works, and why.

Regular time (time as we understand it):

Time as we know it, has laws that allow things to be born, to age, then to die.

Laws of time:
1) Beginning (being born).
2) Age (time-line).
3) End (death).

These laws not only apply to life here on earth, but also to things in space (birth-life-death of stars). Certain elements (half lives). Etc.... So if now you will just put into your mind (ponder) all the things that these laws of time apply to. And just hold those thoughts for a few minutes. You will now understand what I am about to explain next about eternal time creation.

Eternal time creation:

As what I explained above about the laws of time as we know it, there was a time when those laws did not apply. Death was not present as a law until Adam and Eve sinned. So here is what we have from the beginning, till the first sin.

Laws of time:
1) No beginning (means things did not have to be born, just created).
2) No age (age was not a part of time, so age was not controlled by time).
3) No end (Nothing died because eternal time contains no death).

Time for creation to happen could not have the three laws of time attached to it in order for it to work.

1) No beginning laws means that everything created did not have to to go through a birth type process. Which not only applied to life but all the elements involved.

2) No age laws means that things could be created at a certain age because the molecule, elements, etc... just existed. They did not break down because they did not age. So creation of things with age, but without the passage of time was possible because the law of age did not exist yet.

3) No end laws means no death or the end of anything that existed. Life had no end. And all the element, atoms, or what ever did not break down. There were no half lives of certain things because the laws of time that made these things happen did not exist yet.

So time with these three laws missing was time that enabled God to create planets with all different ages. Life full formed and ready to multiply. Stars fully formed and with different ages. This is why we see the term "of old" in God's word, but according to the bible time line not much time had actually passed.

Of old is a reference of things created within the eternal time-line when the three laws of time did not apply.

Of old:

gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.


Not much actual time had passed, so the reference of old points to the time of eternal time creation. Also notice the of old is not followed by explanations of actual time. Like years, or generations.

deut 32:7 Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will show thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.


"Of old" here is speaking of actual time because it includes actual words of this time-line (years and generations).

Side note: This also explains who the sons of God are. They were a creation that was created in the eternal time. But which eternal time? For we have eternal time in heaven, and eternal time on earth that was before the first sin. I will do another thread on the sons of God.

So if we find a verse that speaks of "of old" but does not apply references to an actual time-line as we know it. then what is being spoke of is time that was eternal. So was the earth ever mention as being created in this of old time-line (eternal time creation)?

Psalms 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

There is also a verse that talks about a different time in which the earth was out of course (create outside of time as we know it):

ps 82:5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

Some might think that course would represent an orbit, or a direction. Because that is how the word is most commonly used. But course is also a reference to time. A course of time is a predetermined direction of time. Such as a full or half semester course. So the earth being out of course is a reference to the eternal time that once existed on the earth. A time that is not on the same course as time that we understand.

So "out of course" means:

Time with:
1) No beginning (no birth).
2) No age (appointed time to live or die).
3) No end (no death).

And time on course would mean:

Time with:
1) A beginning (Birth).
2) Age (time-line for life).
3) A end (death).

So eternal time, and time as we know it. Are two parallel time-lines. One was without the three laws of time (eternal creation time). And the other is time as we know, which is time that has the three laws (non-eternal time).

So as a flow chart, time worked like this:

Eternal time--->all things created of old and fully formed----->sin---->the three laws of time added to eternal time---->eternal time is no longer eternal.

And because God cannot break the laws of His own creation. There was nothing created upon the earth from nothing after the first sin was committed.

Examples:

1) During the flood, God had extra water flow from the windows of heaven. Which was not water that already existed upon the earth. If you do a word search on the term "windows of heaven" on a bible search engine. You will find that what comes through the windows of heaven comes directly from heaven.

2) The fish that swallowed Jonah was not created to do so. God's word uses the word prepared. So the fish already existed, and God altered the already created fish to swallow Jonah. So that Jonah would not die.

3) When the wine was provided by Jesus for the wedding where the wine ran out. The words created or made were not used. Why? Creation can only take place in the eternal time creation. Not in the non-eternal time as we know it. So the term used is that Jesus turned the water into wine. So He was doing what God did to the fish. He altered what was already created.

4) When Christ came to the earth. He could not break the law of time that existed. So Christ had to be born (law #1), live and age (law #2), and then die (law #3). In other words, to have control over the three laws of time, Jesus had to live through the three laws of time. But, He also had to not do what caused those three laws to exist (be without sin). Sin attached those laws, so Christ had to be born without sin (unto a virgin) live a sinless life (age without sin), and die and take sin with Him.

So through Christ we have a path to follow that allows us to go from non-eternal time---->back to what time used to be (eternal time).

Sin atonement:

To break the three laws of time so that they do not apply to us. A sin atonement had to be made. The sin atonement is the shedding of innocent blood. In order for Christ's blood to become the path in which this could be done. He had to be born, live and die without sin.... So sin started non-eternal time, a life without sin broke the laws non-eternal time, and provided a way out. And is the reason we get eternal life through Christ, because Christ provides the way to eternal time.

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Posted 28 June 2007 - 06:36 PM

Ikester.

Sorry mate, but I don't know what to say. I want to say something though.
It's amazing what an incredible piece.
It's so far out there it's not even wrong. It's not even wrong theology.

I will agree that it is a good "ponder" though, it's something, and I think it's sincere and well meaning (unless you're pulling one).

If there was such a thing, you would win the "Karl Pilkington Prize" for original thought.

Cheers

#3 lwj2op2

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 07:09 AM

Great piece of work. I saved it for study. Don't know if I concur but I see no immediate reason to discount it.

I take a much simplified approach:
God said it happened.
What is the most reasonable, logical, and literal biblical explanation?
Is there any evidence of fact (historical, technical, medical, physical law, etc.) which proves the biblical account falsified?

I have never taken the time to actually put it in words so I may be lacking in my approach. At this time, the 7, 24 hour day, creation week stands up to the test.

Without entirely agreeing (without research) with your opinion of time before sin, I will say this:
Time before creation began seems irrelevant. Nothing of the universe we know existed. Time itself has no "force" it is only a measurement, much like using a tape measure on a piece of wood. The wood was 8 feet long before and after measured, the tape had no effect on the wood but gives us a standard for reference. Time is a measurement we use for reference. I wonder, when we are no longer affected by time, will we measure our existence by it?

Larry

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 06:11 PM

Great piece of work.


Yes, it sure is. Not quite as eloquent as Terry Pratchet but some of the metaphysics have similarities.
The complete detatchement from anything that can be considered actual physics or any relationship with the known laws of nature or even the construct of reality as we know it are it's hallmarks.
I love the complete dismissal of any need to stay within the normal definitions of common sense.
Its construct of the concept of time it is pure Karl Pilkington.

Well done again

#5 ikester7579

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 10:47 PM

To break it down for basic understanding would be: Since sin caused death, what was time like before the first sin was committed? Time without sin (the first 6 days), would be eternal, or non-eternal?

#6 lwj2op2

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Posted 30 June 2007 - 09:12 AM

To break it down for basic understanding would be: Since sin caused death, what was time like before the first sin was committed? Time without sin (the first 6 days), would be eternal, or non-eternal?

View Post


I wondered if you might make that supposition. The first 6 days were not eternal. They were 6, 24 hour days, with a sunrise and sunset. They encompassed 144 hours total, just like 6 days today.

That is why I keep things simple. God said it did so it did or God is no God. Can claims of God, the Bible, occur? Are they plausible?

#7 trilobyte

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Posted 30 June 2007 - 03:48 PM

Ikester,
In example 3 you said "Creation can only take place in the eternal time creation. Not in the non-eternal time as we know it"

How about the loaves and fishes?

#8 ikester7579

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Posted 01 July 2007 - 12:00 AM

I wondered if you might make that supposition.  The first 6 days were not eternal.  They were 6, 24 hour days, with a sunrise and sunset.  They encompassed 144 hours total, just like 6 days today. 

That is why I keep things simple.  God said it did so it did or God is no God.  Can claims of God, the Bible, occur?  Are they plausible?

View Post


Does time dictate eternity? See we are under the impression that it is time that causes both age and death. God's word makes it clear that it was sin that caused death. So can time exist without sin? It did on the first 6 days.

Example:
1)Time + no sin = time with no death. So time passes, but death and age are not a part of it. So time stands alone with no process of aging or death.

2) Time + sin = time with death. Time with deat includes the process of aging.


Now, show me where in God's word that it says that time caused death? So if time itself did not cause death, then time can exist without the process of death.

#9 ikester7579

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Posted 01 July 2007 - 12:06 AM

Ikester,
In example 3 you said "Creation can only take place in the eternal time creation. Not in the non-eternal time as we know it"

How about the loaves and fishes?

View Post


Matthew 14:19 And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.

There is a difference between multplication of something through a blessing, and creating.

Example: If you pray about a money situation, and God some how makes your money go further. Do you say your money was created, or blessed?

#10 lwj2op2

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Posted 01 July 2007 - 09:46 AM

Does time dictate eternity? See we are under the impression that it is time that causes both age and death. God's word makes it clear that it was sin that caused death. So can time exist without sin? It did on the first 6 days.

Example:
1)Time + no sin = time with no death. So time passes, but death and age are not a part of it. So time stands alone with no process of aging or death.

2) Time + sin = time with death. Time with deat includes the process of aging.
Now, show me where in God's word that it says that time caused death? So if time itself did not cause death, then time can exist without the process of death.

View Post


You said

To break it down for basic understanding would be: Since sin caused death, what was time like before the first sin was committed? Time without sin (the first 6 days), would be eternal, or non-eternal?
*


I am not sure if you intend to say that the first week was eternal; without time so not limited to 7 days, or eternal; 7, 24 hour days of the eternal days we would have spent with God had there been no sin. I agree that time is only a measurement, not an active force with cause or effect.

How many hours, in your understanding, was the creation week?

#11 trilobyte

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 10:00 AM

Does time dictate eternity? See we are under the impression that it is time that causes both age and death. God's word makes it clear that it was sin that caused death. So can time exist without sin? It did on the first 6 days.

Example:
1)Time + no sin = time with no death. So time passes, but death and age are not a part of it. So time stands alone with no process of aging or death.

2) Time + sin = time with death. Time with deat includes the process of aging.
Now, show me where in God's word that it says that time caused death? So if time itself did not cause death, then time can exist without the process of death.

View Post


When you speak of death, do you mean just man? Or do you mean animals with the breath of life? Plants? Insects?

#12 trilobyte

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 10:07 AM

Matthew 14:19 And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.

There is a difference between multplication of something through a blessing, and creating.

Example: If you pray about a money situation, and God some how makes your money go further. Do you say your money was created, or blessed?

View Post



But, in the money scenario the money already existed. The wealth was just redistributed from one bank account to another.

The loaves and fish appear to be different. They started with 5 loaves and 2 fish and ended up with 12 basketfuls AFTER more than 5,000 people ate.

#13 ikester7579

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 07:56 PM

When you speak of death, do you mean just man?  Or do you mean animals with the breath of life? Plants? Insects?

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According to God's word, life is in the blood. Only man and animals have blood.

lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

So this would apply to both man and animals.

#14 ikester7579

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 07:59 PM

But, in the money scenario the money already existed. The wealth was just redistributed from one bank account to another.

The loaves and fish appear to be different. They started with 5 loaves and 2 fish and ended up with 12 basketfuls AFTER more than 5,000 people ate.

View Post


Does God's word say: He created the loaves and fishes? Or does it say he blessed them?

Example: Does Genesis 1:1 say: And God blessed the heaven and earth, or does it say: God created the heaven and earth?

#15 ikester7579

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 08:00 PM

You said

I am not sure if you intend to say that the first week was eternal; without time so not limited to 7 days, or eternal; 7, 24 hour days of the eternal days we would have spent with God had there been no sin.  I agree that time is only a measurement, not an active force with cause or effect.

How many hours, in your understanding, was the creation week?

View Post


God rested on the 7th, so there was 6-24 hour days.

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 02:26 AM

Does God's word say: He created the loaves and fishes? Or does it say he blessed them?

Example: Does Genesis 1:1 say: And God blessed the heaven and earth, or does it say: God created the heaven and earth?

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he blessed them. there could have been a tiny morsel each for every person there but it could have fed them like a banquet

#17 trilobyte

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 05:56 AM

Does God's word say: He created the loaves and fishes? Or does it say he blessed them?

Example: Does Genesis 1:1 say: And God blessed the heaven and earth, or does it say: God created the heaven and earth?

View Post



Call it what you want. There is now more than there was...something appears to have been created from nothing.

#18 trilobyte

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 06:11 AM

MAR 10:16 And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.

Did the kids also multiply like the loaves and fish?

LUK 24:50 When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them.

Did those guys also multiply?

From what I can gather, the blessing of the loaves and fishes was Jesus "giving thanks".

#19 ikester7579

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 10:07 PM

MAR 10:16  And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.

Did the kids also multiply like the loaves and fish?

LUK 24:50  When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them.

Did those guys also multiply?

From what I can gather, the blessing of the loaves and fishes was Jesus "giving thanks".

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If Christ was still into creating, why did he change water into wine when He could have created it from nothing?

#20 trilobyte

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 08:21 AM

If Christ was still into creating, why did he change water into wine when He could have created it from nothing?

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Then where did the 12 baskets of food come from?




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