The Flood

[Guest Franklin]

I am curious as to what outcomes Creationists point to as having made all the destruction and cataclysmic repercussions of the Flood worthwhile.

 

Thank you

[scott 3]

So what exactly do you want to know??? The causes of formations??? Or the purpose as to why God flooded the earth???

 

I'm guessing causes of the different formations? Is this what your asking?

[jason777 1]

I am curious as to what outcomes Creationists point to as having made  all the destruction and cataclysmic repercussions of the Flood worthwhile.

 

Thank you

41074[/snapback]

The flood was a warning to repent.God cannot glorify corruption,but he does believe in second chances so he offered up his only son and whoever believes in and has faith in Jesus will be saved.

 

 

 

Enjoy.

[Guest Franklin]

The flood was a warning to repent.God cannot glorify corruption,but he does believe in second chances so he offered up his only son and whoever believes in and has faith in Jesus will be saved.

Enjoy.

41080[/snapback]

I wonder where it states in the Genesis story that it was a warning to repent.

My recollection is that in the first instance, God was so furioius at the violent, ungodly way his Creation had turned out that he resolved to scrap the whole thing

(006:006 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth,

and it grieved him at his heart.

006:007 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from

the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping

thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I

have made them.

 

006:011 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was

filled with violence.

006:012 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt;

for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

- and only changed his mind because Noah "found grace" in his eyes.

(Odd behaviour, perhaps, for an omnisicent God? He must have known from the off how things were going to turn out, and known from the off he'd save Mr and Mrs Noah and their family and a representative bunch of animals from what he was about to do - so why say one thing and do another?)

 

Besides which, what did the Flood achieve?

[Guest Franklin]

One of the very many reasons why the Flood seems to me so prepostrous is its pointlessness.

 

God caused it because men were wicked, and the Earth was corrupt and filled with violence.

 

Yet within a space of a few hundred years of the Flood having occurred, the only people on Earth who knew anything about it were the Judeans. Only they knew it had been caused by their God, and only they knew it had been survived by Mr and Mrs Noah and their sons Japheth, Ham and Shem and their wives.

 

Were these individuals not the relatively-recent ancestors of every single person involved in building the Tower of Babel and who afterwards founded all the world's nations? So why were Noah and his sons and the Flood-making God only remembered by the Judeans?

Why, within a few generations, was every other nation so completely ignorant of God's existence that it had invented gods of its own to worship?

 

Was that the outcome God had looked for when he destroyed practically all life on Earth?

 

Then there's the matter of violence and corruption. How much less violent and corrupt are post-Deluvian hyenas than their ante-Deluvian relations? And the lions? Tigers? Leopards? Wolves? Grizzly bears? Stoats? Mink? Eagles? Army ants?

Are post-Deluvian koala bears, rabbits, meercats, hamsters etc less corrupt than those that were drowned? How can they be less corrupt?

 

And if God had intended the Flood to end corruption and violence, did Noah select less violent and corrupt elephants, bison, pigs, rattle snakes etc to put on the Ark?

 

Has anyone any answers to these questions.

 

Thank you

[scott 3]

Those tiny fluffy/fuzzy carnivorous mammals such as wolves, lions, and bears... were absolutely nothing compared to the dinosaurs which roamed the earth before the Flood. The animals that live on this planet now are so lame and scarce it's not even funny. Our planet... is almost void of extremely interesting and large dangerous animals. We have a few black panthers where I live, but they are nothing compared to Tyrannosaurus, a Utah Raptor, or an Allosaurus.

 

There were giants in those days, and man lived alot longer than they did at that time also. So the evils of man could thrive longer. Also the giants were also men. Very strong, and very corrupt.

 

If God didn't Flood the earth, we wouldn't have fossils (which require water and lots of sediment to even be created in the first place), and the formations we see today. We also wouldn't have nice safe public roads for the fear of running into a dinosaur. We also wouldn't have nice paint jobs on our cars or nice roofs on our houses because of all the pteradactyle poop.

 

All's I know is that is was extremely different back then, and the Bible really doesn't explain it at all... Except that it was extremely bad and sinful back then. If you want a full explanation then I suggest that you:

 

1. Repent of your sins and have faith in Jesus Christ so that you can go to heaven when you die.

 

2. When you get to heaven you can ask God all the questions that you could possibly want to ask, and then you would recieve all the answers that you could ever possibly want.

[Guest Franklin]

Those tiny fluffy/fuzzy carnivorous mammals such as wolves, lions, and bears... were absolutely nothing compared to the dinosaurs which roamed the earth before the Flood.

41141[/snapback]

Don't some Creationists believe the dinosaurs were on the Ark - and perished because they couldn't cope with the aftermath?

Are they wrong?

 

The animals that live on this planet now are so lame and scarce it's not even funny.  Our planet... is almost void of extremely interesting and large dangerous animals.  We have a few black panthers where I live, but they are nothing compared to Tyrannosaurus, a Utah Raptor, or an Allosaurus.

41141[/snapback]

So were the Tyrannosaurus, Utah Raptor and Allosaurus especially wicked?

Where had they sprung from? Didn't God make them pop out of the ground fully formed and ready to go along with all the other animals on the planet? Didn't he realise how they were going to behave? Or did they only get violent after the Fall, having used those huge teeth and giant claws and powerful muscles for digging up roots and eating leaves?

 

There were giants in those days, and man lived alot longer than they did at that time also.  So the evils of man could thrive longer.  Also the giants were also men.  Very strong, and very corrupt.

41141[/snapback]

I don't even begin to believe that.

I suppose there were dragons and unicorns and one-eyed ogres?

 

If God didn't Flood the earth, we wouldn't have fossils (which require water and lots of sediment to even be created in the first place)

41141[/snapback]

Are you saying the purpose of the Flood was to leave us fossils to find?

 

If you want a full explanation then I suggest that you:

1.  Repent of your sins and have faith in Jesus Christ so that you can go to heaven when you die.

2. When you get to heaven you can ask God all the questions that you could possibly want to ask, and then you would recieve all the answers that you could ever possibly want.

41141[/snapback]

So we don't need to try finding the answers to any of life's mysteries; we should wait until we're dead, and ask God then (provided we're not in Helll, for asking awkward questions when we were still alive)?

 

Is that the advice people should have followed all along?

[scott 3]

Franklin, Genesis 6:4 states that there were giants. " There were Giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old. men of renown. " The best I can figure is that the sons of God were the fallen angels... Satan, and his legion, but I could be wrong. That would explain the wickedness. People lived really really long back then according to the Bible.

 

Dinosaurs are actually dragons... the word dinosaur can be thrown in the garbage. Yes, I do believe some dinosaurs were brought on to the ark, and yes dinosaurs and every other animal turned bad after the fall.

 

Reason: Genesis 3:18 " Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you..."

 

By this I'm guessing the animals were no longer friendly, and in a way may have turned evil. Of course the carnivorous animals may have been the same way before the fall, simply because the Garden of Eden most likely protected the only people on the planet whom were Adam and Eve at the time. It's not really bad, or sinful when other animals kill to survive as they were made because... they have no soul... unlike humans who have a soul. Adam and Eve also didn't have the knowledge of Good and Evil back then, so they could have not known that animals killing each other was good or bad... of course they didn't know... They didn't take of the tree yet.

 

You see, God also put another tree in the Garden of Eden... the Tree of Life which was now guarded by an angel, and taken back to heaven ( most likely) before the Flood... because that tree gives eternal life. When you are saved by Jesus Christ, you will one day take of and have that life... Revelation. The Bible is connected. I guess God put the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden to test Adam and Eve to see if they would obey, and if they did... they would one day finally partake of the tree of life. That would've been the easy way... but man has free will, and the free will to dis obey, because that is the only way to test love. To have free will. So Man has to get eternal life the hard way now, because of Adam and Eve.

 

The Purpose of the Flood was simply stated because the people of before the flood were extremely wicked... I mean it must have been pretty bad. I agree this is one of lifes mysteries, but really... if the Bible doesn't say... it doesn't say. We can speculate about why... as I mentioned above, but we won't know if it really is the truth. Also, no the flood's purpose wasn't to make fossils... fossils were just a bi-product of it.

 

I too like to search for the meaning of life, and the mysteries that this life holds, I am not a husk, or shell of a human with no soul. It is this desire that you and me both share, it is this desire that shows there is something more to us than mere random chance, there is something more to life than nothing at all. It's what makes us human, and so very differnet than the rest of living organisms on this planet.

 

Do you want to know more? Just ask, and you can be specific. I don't care if you think it's childish for me or anyone else to believe in these old stories from the Bible.

[Guest Franklin]

Franklin,  Genesis 6:4 states that there were giants. " There were Giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old. men of renown. "  The best I can figure is that the sons of God were the fallen angels... Satan, and his legion, but I could be wrong.  That would explain the wickedness.  People lived really really long back then according to the Bible.

 

Dinosaurs are actually dragons... the word dinosaur can be thrown in the garbage.  Yes, I do believe some dinosaurs were brought on to the ark, and yes dinosaurs and every other animal turned bad after the fall. 

 

Reason:  Genesis 3:18  " Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you..."

 

By this I'm guessing the animals were no longer friendly, and in a way may have turned evil.  Of course the carnivorous animals may have been the same way before the fall, simply because the Garden of Eden most likely protected the only people on the planet whom were Adam and Eve at the time.  It's not really bad, or sinful when other animals kill to survive as they were made because... they have no soul... unlike humans who have a soul.  Adam and Eve also didn't have the knowledge of Good and Evil back then, so they could have not known that animals killing each other was good or bad... of course they didn't know... They didn't take of the tree yet.

 

You see, God also put another tree in the Garden of Eden... the Tree of Life which was now guarded by an angel, and taken back to heaven ( most likely) before the Flood... because that tree gives eternal life.  When you are saved by Jesus Christ, you will one day take of and have that life... Revelation.  The Bible is connected.  I guess God put the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden to test Adam and Eve to see if they would obey, and if they did... they would one day finally partake of the tree of life.  That would've been the easy way... but man has free will, and the free will to dis obey, because that is the only way to test love.  To have free will.  So Man has to get eternal life the hard way now, because of Adam and Eve.

 

The Purpose of the Flood was simply stated because the people of before the flood were extremely wicked... I mean it must have been pretty bad.  I agree this is one of lifes mysteries, but really... if the Bible doesn't say... it doesn't say.  We can speculate about why... as I mentioned above, but we won't know if it really is the truth. Also, no the flood's purpose wasn't to make fossils... fossils were just a bi-product of it.

 

I too like to search for the meaning of life, and the mysteries that this life holds, I am not a husk, or shell of a human with no soul.  It is this desire that you and me both share, it is this desire that shows there is something more to us than mere random chance, there is something more to life than nothing at all.  It's what makes us human, and so very differnet than the rest of living organisms on this planet. 

 

Do you want to know more? Just ask, and you can be specific.  I don't care if you think it's childish for me or anyone else to believe in these old stories from the Bible.

41148[/snapback]

I appreciate the tone of Scott's replies and respect the sincerity of his beliefs, and perhaps, afterall, the questions which burst like motar bombs in my brain when I read Genesis barely register in his or other Creationists'.

 

So while Genesis states there were giants, the Creationist thinks "Yes, if that's what Genesis states, there must have been".

 

I think "What?" And then I think "Well, that's no more absurd than its account of a six-day creation, with light being created without an energy source to provide it, and day and night existing before there's a spinning Earth to experience them; no more absurd than all the animals on Earth popping out of the ground fully formed and ready to go - the ant-eater knowing it's to eat ants, the parasitic wasp knowing the insect it's going to exploit, the elephant knowing what it's got to eat, the snow goose knowing how to migrate etc etc; no more absurd than a speaking snake; no more absurd than a god making trees with magical fruits which no one can eat (who, I wonder, was the Tempter - God for putting those trees in the Garden in the first place, or the Serpent for persuading Eve to eat the fruit of one of them?) and no more absurd than a god flooding the Earth and drowning practically all life on it becuse things hadn't worked out they way it had wanted them to.

 

Now, I realise that I cannot persuade a Creationist to share my opinion of these stories, because for a Creationist they are a matter of belief; and part and parcel of a faith that believing them is necessary for going to Heaven.

 

However...I cannot believe that some questions can be totally ignored, which is why I raised the one about the point of the Flood - and how Creationists explain to themselves why only one nation on Earth has a record of the god that caused it, why that god caused it, who and what survived it - and how they survived it.

 

Creationist or not, the issue remains that within a few generations of the most cataclysmic event in Earth's short history (if Creationists are right about that), only the Judeans knew about the one true God, everyone else having to invent ones of their own.

 

My explanation is simple: the Judean Flood is a Judean myth.

That's why.

[ikester7579 19]

In the old testament, when people died they did not go to heaven or hell. They did what was called: Slept with thy fathers. Which basically means their souls stayed with there bodies.

 

But this caused another problem for people living upon this earth. because punishment, or reward, was not given after death. Both had to be carried out while on earth. This explains why there was so much violence and judgement.

 

The flood was the judgement for the wicked. Every man that God had created had choosen wicked and evil things. And had turned that back upon God. So God had to judge man for what he has choosen. But this did not come without God giving man a chance to repent. It took several years for Noah to build that boat. And while Noah built it, people would often come to listen to him preached about the coming flood. But no one really took him seriously. In fact he became the joke of the town.

 

So when the waters and rain came, the wicked were judged with death. And Noah was left with the task of starting anew for mankind.

 

Also, the water for the flood has been found in a mineral called wadsleyite (30 oceans worth): http://www.ldolphin.org/deepwaters.html

 

Suddenly, there was somewhere to put water deep inside the mantle. "You can have oceans and oceans of water stored in the transition zone," says Jay Bass of the University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign. "It's sopping wet stuff." Researchers think wadsleyite can hold as much as 3·3 per cent water by weight. It may not sound like much, but there could be an awful lot of wadsleyite.

 

According to Smyth, models of the mantle's composition suggest that at the depths where wadsleyite is stable, between half and three-quarters of the material is the right stuff for making this mineral. "If the region between 400 and 525 kilometers were, say, 60 per cent wadsleyite, and that phase was saturated at 3·3 weight per cent, that's ten oceans of water," says Smyth. But Dan Frost, an experimental petrologist at the Carnegie Institution of Washington's Geophysical Laboratory in Washington DC, thinks the mantle could contain even more water.

 

Frost says that solidified lava that has erupted at mid-ocean ridges contains glass that can be analyzed for water content. His research team has calculated how much water the lava's parent material in the mantle must have contained. "It ends up being between 100 and 500 parts per million," he says. And if the whole mantle contained 500 parts per million of water, Frost calculates that would be the equivalent of 30 oceans of water.

Then we have the scientific test that shows how the flood laid the geological layers.

 

 

Then we have a video the shows that the wear at the top of the Grand Canyon, which is been exposed to the elements for millions of years. Is just as deep cut as the freshly cut wear from the river at the bottom of the Canyon. How long does horizontal wear last? Not millions of years.

 

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="

name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[ikester7579 19]

Here's the video about the first light (light with no energy):

 

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="

name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

Here is a video about the sons of God.

 

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="

name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

Creating the earth with age:

 

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="

name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

Does oil take millions of years to form?

 

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="

name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Guest Franklin]

In the old testament, when people died they did not go to heaven or hell. They did what was called: Slept with thy fathers. Which basically means their souls stayed with there bodies.

41182[/snapback]

Really?

Who said that?

 

But this caused another problem for people living upon this earth. because punishment, or reward, was not given after death. Both had to be carried out while on earth. This explains why there was so much violence and judgement.

41182[/snapback]

It may explain it to Ikester, but it doesn't explain it to me; why would a system of reward and punishment in this life cause violence and judgment?

(Well, looking at the US I suppose it may be said to cause a good deal of violence and judgment - but Switzerland? Norway? Denmark?)

 

The flood was the judgement for the wicked.

41182[/snapback]

So how wicked were the rabbits and reindeer and moles?

 

Every man that God had created had choosen wicked and evil things. And had turned that back upon God. So God had to judge man for what he has choosen. But this did not come without God giving man a chance to repent. It took several years for Noah to build that boat. And while Noah built it, people would often come to listen to him preached about the coming flood. But no one really took him seriously. In fact he became the joke of the town.

41182[/snapback]

Don't know where that story comes from - it's not in my version of Genesis - but yes. I would suppose it'd take Noah and his family many years to build the Ark.

How many trees did they have to chop down, and turn into planks? Even if they had the use of iron and steel tools, that's a lot of work.

How did they transport the timber. Where did they get the gallons and gallons of pitch from? How did they keep the thing from falling apart? Did they have nails?

 

So when the waters and rain came, the wicked were judged with death. And Noah was left with the task of starting anew for mankind.

41182[/snapback]

Back to the "wicked" again. How wicked were the bats? And how less wicked than the contemporary population of bats were the ones which were taken on the Ark?

 

I am trying to avoid getting into a discussion about evidence for a Flood because I know that Creationists believe they can provide it (but can't persuade anyone else, I think, who doesn't believe that Genesis and the rest of the Pentateuch are the exact words of a god.)

 

What I am trying to get at is what Creationists believe the Flood achieved - considering the violence and wickedness that's run all the way through human history from the Flood onwards, and the odd fact that only the Jews retained knowledge of the God that caused it, everyone else inventing gods of their own within just a couple of generations.

[Guest Franklin]

Thanks for the No Sun No Problem You Tube link.

 

I realise I invited it by raising the question of Light without an energy source to provide it.

But that nicely-packed little sermon doesn't address some key issues, like what the first light fell upon.

No Earth at that stage, remember?

Not much of anything, in fact. Except a mysterious supply of water.

 

And what about day and night? God switched his glory off and on at 24 hourly intervals I suppose?

My other problem - and I don't mean to make heavy weather of this or discuss it further in this thread - is that if God could create enough light for plants to grow from his own glory, why do we need a sun?

 

OK - to "rule the day".

 

I cannot imagine for what purpose, unless to be something to help us gauge the time. But if that's why God put it there, why doesn't Genesis say so?

 

(We know, of course, that the sun doesn't simply "rule the day". It sustains all terrestrial life, but I don't suppose Bronze Age Judeans had even the remotest inkling of that)

[ikester7579 19]

I'm curious, did you start this thread to mock creation, or to get information? When people start wasting our time with posts and questions where we can never satisfy to their liking. Then they use mocking comments as to show their intent was to never get a answer, but waste everyone's time. It starts to become a bannable offense.

 

1) Now what was your goal of starting this thread?

2) And what answers would you accept since it is very clear no answer is acceptable?

 

And also you have derailed your own thread by asking questions way off the flood issue. I don't mind small derails as long as they add to the subject at hand. But I get the impression that you want to use this thread as a total attack on the flood and creation.

 

So are you here to waste time by making a thread where no one can answer your questions because you will reject while mocking them?

[Guest Franklin]

I'm curious, did you start this thread to mock creation, or to get information? When people start wasting our time with posts and questions where we can never satisfy to their liking. Then they use mocking comments as to show their intent was to never get a answer, but waste everyone's time. It starts to become a bannable offense.

 

1) Now what was your goal of starting this thread?

2) And what answers would you accept since it is very clear no answer is acceptable?

 

And also you have derailed your own thread by asking questions way off the flood issue. I don't mind small derails as long as they add to the subject at hand. But I get the impression that you want to use this thread as a total attack on the flood and creation.

 

So are you here to waste time by making a thread where no one can answer your questions because you will reject while mocking them?

41218[/snapback]

I'm sorry ikester thinks I'm wasting members' time and mocking Creationists.

 

 

"1) Now what was your goal of starting this thread?"

My question was very specific: what do Creationists think was the point of the Flood, bearing in mind what followed it?

I ask it because one of the very many reasons I'm convinced its a myth is because those consequences suggest to me that it did not end violence, wickedness and ungoldliness upon the Earth.

 

If it didn't, why all that destruction and carnage?

 

"2) And what answers would you accept..."

Any answer which addresses the question.

 

"...since it is very clear no answer is acceptable?"

 

If my question has been answered, then I've missed it.

 

Now, if asking such a question is a bannable offence here, then by all means ban me.

[ikester7579 19]

I'm sorry ikester thinks I'm wasting members' time and mocking Creationists.

"1) Now what was your goal of starting this thread?"

My question was very specific: what do Creationists think was the point of the Flood, bearing in mind what followed it?

I ask it because one of the very many reasons I'm convinced its a myth is because those consequences suggest to me that it did not end violence, wickedness and ungoldliness upon the Earth.

 

If it didn't, why all that destruction and carnage?

 

"2) And what answers would you accept..."

Any answer which addresses the question.

 

"...since it is very clear no answer is acceptable?"

 

If my question has been answered, then I've missed it.

 

Now, if asking such a question is a bannable offence here, then by all means ban me.

41227[/snapback]

You made it clear by this post that you will waste even more time.

 

Thread closed member banned.