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Things That Don't Exist?


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#41 Mike Summers

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Posted 28 July 2016 - 12:46 PM


(edited by ms)

Posted 27 July 2016 - 05:30 PM

Mike the wiz said:

I have noticed that, it's a subtle begging-the-question, because it gets the atheist into the, "no ideological position" category, or, "no belief system", as though the atheist position is somehow excluded from discussion as some type of objectively correct position.

Absolutely. Atheism is only one belief of a multi-belief indidual. That's one of the points I've been tring to make since I've been here. They fail to acknowledge that disbelief in God does not change the rest of their dysfunctional ideas. We're not treated usually to the rest of the alleged atheists beleifs. They are a mystery.

Mike the wi: Goku says, "why is your God the correct on". I believe I can give some good reasons. But why is his none-God ideology the correct one? that leas some to think they hae some sort neutal or as ou said are ieolog free. Hardly!

Mike s: Apparently because he sees himself as an authority figure. Therefore, only what he decides is true can be true.

Mike the wiz: Can you see the problem, he expects us to believe that macro-evolution is a fact and abiogenesis is inevitable and that it actually happened, along with the big-bang tornado-in-a-junkyard, that created a 747 jet. Why is that the correct position?

I know you can guess my position on this one. But I will say it for our readers sake. Bottom line is intelligence and intelligence can create works of fiction I.E. Star Trek, Star Wars etc. Darwin was intelligent so he conceived and wrote a story. All he had to do was call it a theory and let a bunch of gullible people read it. As for my part, bottom line if I wanted universe I would create it.
I know of no other way than to start anthing than with intelligence. It's the main ingredient to knowing anything.

Mike the wiz: I think the strongest implication that the bible is the correct word from God, is that it's influence on the world has been more powerful than any other book, if we look across history. Meaning that if God is NOT the God of the bible, then most people would agree that He has at least made it look like the bible is the correct message. It gives good answers to why people behave the way they do, and why the world is the way it is, it gives a meaningful and amazing message about Christ, and provides incredible wisdom from His words that a fictional writer would struggle to match. Simply put, the first thing "God" should have done, is not allow the bible's existence, because the other holy books, if one of them is true, or some other religion is true, are in second place by a long, long way. A metaphorical country mile. The deep questions of the human heart need answers, and the bible gives satisfying ones that actually mean something.

Mike S: The opening of the book of Genesis tells us in a nutshell what man's problem is. Man has taken to himself the knowledge of good and evil. Since I have given up gorging myself on the tree of good and evil I am the happiest I've ever been in my life.

As Scripture says, "See that you be not troubled for these things must come to pass." Now, that's good advice



#42 Mike Summers

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Posted 28 July 2016 - 01:25 PM

Mike the wiz,

Mike S: Apparently because he sees himself as an authority figure. Therefore, only what he decides is true can be true.

Mike the wiz: That's what I see a lot in these debates Mike, it seems to me Goku always assumes that his morality is the correct one.

Yes. That's it, Mike. All the rhetoric about there being no morality external to his mind is a ruse. It's smoke and mirrors. His morality is indicated by the things he says and does! Behavior is always inndicative of our morality! "By their fruit you will know them." To claim there is no obective morality is self-deception. It's nonsense. "I am not doing what I am doing."

 

Consider his "view" of us? We are guilty of bashing even when we make the claim we have not done such things. So, in application he forgives only the people he thinks (practicing his morality) deserves it. That's not love for everone but just the ones he thinks deserve it (his morality in action once again).

He doesn't seem to understand that when he reasons to us, why he is correct, he is simply giving us some relative statements. Example; "I see no harm therefore there isn't any morality".


This is a part of his self deception
his behavior shows and demonstrates his "morals" (another name for beliefs) he uses.

Until Goku realises his own mistakes, (such as the exampled argumentum ad ignorantiam), then unfortunately he will put sophistry ahead of sound reasoning, IMHO. He seems to think that common atheist arguments are something special we haven't heard of before and we don't understand. He seems to think the usual, old-canard criticisms of scripture, are something hard and new we have to deal with, not realising that thousands have had the same thoughts "occur" to them before him.

While Goku is a lovable troll, nevertheless his tactics are evasion, IMHO. :D "evasive manoeuvres Mr Scott" ;)

I hope Goku doesn't see this as a personal attack, it's not meant to be. I just think that he presumes that we have never done any homework and are unaware of the arguments he poses, but believe it or not Mike, I could actually tell him what he will argue and write it on a piece of paper, before he argues it.

Its not an attack just our effort to play a part in undeceiving him. Apparently, we are not doinnng to well. LOL

Mike. After 35 year of practicing therapy a pattern emerges. LOL

None of the reasons he has given actually change anything. Morality is also about motive, and atheists' motives in attacking the bible, are not moral. They purposefully search for scriptures and do not consciously acknowledge any unity-of-scripture, meaning they will cherry-pick verses without letting the rest of the bible interpret how those scriptures should apply to us. I.e. Goku assumes atheism on our behalf then proceeds as though we have agreed that each scripture is a disjointed, disparate dictum. In fact some scriptures don't teach us much of anything, they just pronounce or are a recording of events, they do not necessarily say anything about how we should behave like the atheist seems to presume.

For example, if God says something about the G*y-act, that can in no way change the scriptures about how we should behave towards people anyway. Christ our example, befriended sinners, prostitutes, etc....

One of the core ideas Jesus explained was, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Forgvenss is readily available, we are equals and no one is any better than anyone else. Focusing on g*ys as sinners above all blinds us and we then fail to examine ourself to acknowledge the many sins "we" commit. Goku seems to realise this but doesen't apply it evenly. He has sustituded us for what he thinks we feel towrds g*ys. Now, we are the the miscreants. He has now aimed the hostility he thinks he has given up towards us. Hate is hate. All he has done is redirected it at insteaad of g*ys. W are have become his unrepentant unforgiven sinners.

God, whom I totally agree with, suggest we give up the idea of hate (evil) altogether!

From reading his prose, I get the impression that Goku thinks he left a dysfunctional religion (Christianity) when he has only added a new belief (disbelief in God) to his religion (his philosophy of life).

What he seems to fail to realize is that God is only one of many beings. Currently, there are 7 billion beings on on our planet. Minusing one being from his belief system doesn't really mean much.

God is not the problem any more than you or I are. Goku is still left with Goku at the end of the day--along with the same core idea Adam & Eve accepted from the fallen Angel--externals and what others say and do cause his intenal turmiol and not his stinking thinking. He does not accept the sovereignty of himself as an individual. Nor that of others. His name could be legion.

At least to their credit g*ys have acepted forgiveness for themsellves and learned not to bother themselves over what others think. LOL Look at all the victims on the planet. Goku is in good company.

Relationships alway ocur in two's, father & son, dad & mom, mom & son, goku & you, Goku & me, you & me, etc. This componet is dimisihed when Goku et al perpetuates the neurotic agreement "'group" we are supposed to belong to.

I see myself as an individual responsible for how I treat other idividuals. I have not created hate for him or anyone else in quitte awhite. LOL However, I can't say from reading his prose he does not do the same for us. LOL He is very definitely "us vs them" in his thinking--one of many ideas we don't share. I am not against anyone. I don't do us vs. them's. LOL

Goku thinks we are the problem. Yet, like all of us he is a victim of his own mind. As I have said on numeous occasions, "We are doing it to ourselce and the only way to stop is to quit."

Again, from his rhetoric the core dysfunctional idea that remains in Goku's belief is that others thinking and emotions somehow have a profound effect on him and our fellow human beings. This is the core idea--the deception that Satan fostered off on mankind in the Garden of Eden.

Lets see how this deception played off in Dallas Texas. One young man formed a neurotic agreement to belonging to a group. Keep in mind I am claiming a group has no controlling brain. The young guman created another neurotic agreement in his mind that others because of their different skin color belong to a different group. The error that the young man made is that he is abusing the concept "group" subtly concluding that there is somehw a connecetion between people that isn't there. Each of us are in connntrol of ourselves. There is no "group" brain that can conntrol individuals. With his illusion of fusion in place--his neurotic agreements in place he personalizes perhaps a wrong comitted by a member of an "offending" group and then decided to kill innocent individuals that hadn't done anything to him.

When we fail to see ourselves and others as individuals we can indulge ourseles in some extremly pernicious reasoning.

Person A kills person B and so person C kills persons, D,E,and F and no doubt would have continued killing had not person G killed person A to end A's mudering spree.



#43 mike the wiz

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Posted 28 July 2016 - 03:11 PM

I deleted that post Mike responded to because I didn't want to personally attack Goku. I said, "lovable troll", which was only mischief but I wouldn't class Goku as a troll. Perhaps my post was a little ad-hominem Mike, so I have obeyed my own rules and deleted it, but I don't mind if Goku wants to take revenge upon me.

 

;)

 

I agree Mike, I originally only used the G*y act as one example, I wasn't picking on G*y people. The world is a mess for many reasons. One thing I would say I perhaps might not agree with you on is that the Goku-guru hates us. I don't really get that sense when we converse, I get the sense I am talking to a cordial Christian in denial of Christianity, not saying what he is saying. Lol.

 

We mean to have you guru! You'll be a full Christian this time next year, my lad! ;)



#44 Mike Summers

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Posted 28 July 2016 - 06:21 PM

Mike the wiz said:

I deleted that post Mike responded to because I didn't want to personally attack Goku. I said, "lovable troll", which was only mischief but I wouldn't class Goku as a troll. Perhaps my post was a little ad-hominem Mike, so I have obeyed my own rules and deleted it, but I don't mind if Goku wants to take revenge upon me...

It takes very thick skin to tell people the truth about how they come across to others--to try and undeceive them. The biggest threat I can get is usually their rejection. Rejection is not a pleasant experience. As you noticed I have been rejected and ignored several times.

I too see Gokut and others as sheep that havee gone astray--worth saving. Goku claims by His atheism our God does not exist whih is deeply disrespectful of both God and us. If he can dish it out the least I can do is reflect back his ad homien attack on God he wears like a badge of honor!

It is indeed an upleasant experience to be rejected--to be patted on my pointed head and patronied as an imbecille. But, I would gladly risk being rejected to blast through someone's nonsense for their sake--because God did that for me. I am not attacking Goku but the nonsense he keeps spouting off. If I am going to do the "job" I promissed God I would do when He told me the truth about human dsturbance, I have to treat him like myself.

I agree Mike, I originally only used the G*y act as one example, I wasn't picking on G*y people. The world is a mess for many reasons. One thing I would say I perhaps might not agree with you on is that the Goku-guru hates us.

I am not talking about "hate" in the typical sense but hate in the sense that he does not see us as his equal. As you know the bible says "faithful" are the wounds of a friend. A friend will tell us the truth about ourselves--even if it is unpopular and appears to "hurt" our feelings.

I don't really get that sense when we converse, I get the sense I am talking to a cordial Christian in denial of Christianity, not saying what he is saying. Lol.

No of course not. He stays here for some reason to recieve all the rebuttal we give him. I have to give him credit for that. LOL I can not go as far as God went to break through Job's self righteousness but, I try to come close. LOL

 



#45 mike the wiz

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 03:05 AM

 

 

Mike: I am not attacking Goku but the nonsense he keeps spouting off

 

Fair enough Mike. 



#46 Mike Summers

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 06:24 AM

Mike the wiz, I dcided to revisit some of Goku's prose.

What we are trying to say is that the morality you think is coming from God, is in fact the relative morality of a sect of people some two to three thousand years ago.


We have a choice of morals we choose to apply. We can also create our own. This is nonsense because it blames a buncf dead people for whar we choose to do or not do today (our contemporary personal morality).
Source is insignficant. the effect of the morals we choos to apply is the real issue.

It's like saying because someone 2,000 years ago killed someone, I have the right to do the same. Goku avoids making himselllf and us individually responsible for what we say and do. He blames the non- existant entity "group" hoping we will deem ourselves guilt by assocation witht the group. Not!

The individuals in the Nazi group killed 9 million people. Therfore, because you are a German. you are responsible for what the individual Nazi Germans did! Can we see how distorted this reasoning is?

Personally, the morals that I have decided to create and use in interfacng with others do no includde killing other beings--nor bashing them. It's not guilt by association.

Once again we are treated to a view of Goku's distorted thinking.
He keeps failing to see humans as individuals. Instead he resorts to the neurotic agreement "group", and then blames the "group" he created as if belonging to a group means there is some kind of group mind that controls its members. The fact that individual memebers of a so called group act other than he seems to infer they must is ignored. Your reasoning is not very precision or scienntific. Too bad Goku! All 7 billion people on the earth are indviduals. Treat them thusly.

We are warned in the bible not to give our power (our free choice) to the beast (a leader telling us to do wrong to others).

 






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