I'm Not A Yec (But Obviously I Am An Ec)

[Enoch 2021 412]

I am sorry Enoch , I was half awake when I made the post. I meant to say biogenesis (life only comes from life). MY bad!

 

 

ahh, No Worries

 

So are we but in a portable containment field callled our body.

"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him"?-- 1st Cor 2:11

 

 

True

 

God uses his holy spirit to animate matter. We call it biological life.

 

 

Do Giraffes have the Holy Spirit?  Are they Biological Life?

 

 

How bout, without God there is no Life?

 

 

My comment was specifically a response to Mike The Wiz:

 

"Enoch, I am a young-life creationist, but I don't see where there is a rule that means that if life is 6-8000 years old that everything else has to be. If I am 35 years old and have lived in the same house my whole life, would that mean my house is 35 years old?"

 

This is a Straw Man of Epic Proportions.

 

1.  Exodus 20:11 tells us that the Earth was created in 6 LITERAL DAYS and the first life was spoken into existence by God on Day 3.

 

2. The Analogy (False Analogy Trainwreck) has absolutely nothing to do with the argument whatsoever... So if God is 35 Billion Years old and has lived in HIS universe his whole life, would that mean HIS universe is 35 Billion Years old?

 

...is the closest thing I can come up with.

 

2a.  What on Earth does this incoherent analogy have to do with the Age of the Earth and THIS UNIVERSE (Not where God Resides) and when life was spoken into existence by God??

 

I'm not getting it, maybe you can clarify it for me...?

 

ps.  can you also tell me what on Earth is a "Young-Life Creationist" ??

 

Thanks

[Mike Summers 454]

Actually my comment was aimed more towads lurkers. But I think most allleged atheists think we think God createdl life God is the father of anything living or made of matter. The original observer. Technically he did not create life/

[Enoch 2021 412]

 But I think most allleged atheists think we think God createdl life 

 

That's because HE did.

 

 

Technically he did not create life/

 

 

Well then Technically, what/who did?

 

(John 1:3) "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

 

 

regards

[mike the wiz 1,210]

 

Enoch: This is a Straw Man of Epic Proportions.

 

1.  Exodus 20:11 tells us that the Earth was created in 6 LITERAL DAYS and the first life was spoken into existence by God on Day 3.

 

Enoch how can an analogy be a strawman?

 

I think exodus mentions days and I suppose the best context is literal, however, when it says God, "made" in six days I wonder if that means "made", as in, "made" my already existent bed, or "created".

 

It seems to me the term, "created" or, "made" could be equivocal. If God made a primordial universe and earth as it indicates when it says the earth was "formless and void", then He could still have "made" the heavens and earth in six days.

 

For example, I have made and sold many hundreds of toys, mostly toy wooden/clay wands, I first cut the wood then I prepare the clay. That wood and clay sometimes can sit there for three hours, then I make a toy and might say, "I made this toy in two hours."

 

Here's one I made earlier:  (that's just the handle.)

 

 

 

You see I just think differently now Enoch. I just don't mind what age the universe is. I am open to the gap as I am open to the whole thing literally six days, I will accept whichever one it is. Like mike said earlier, the universe can be any age God wants it to be. 

 

[Mike Summers 454]

Enoch said

(John 1:3) "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

A thing is material. You are not saying you and your body are one are you? That would be materialsism. God claims He is all knowing! God is life. Why would he need to create life when he "is" life and can pass it on? Connsider biogenesis again. The plants and animals are alive because he gave them life something he has plenty of!

Gitt says "In the beginnning was information". Information is not made of matter! Think! Creativity by definition is bringng some thing into existence that never existed. God has always been a living being. For that reason he did not create himself and is considerd he first cause. He created everything including our abilit to be different personalties. What we ll share is life (on a timer). LOL

I was a teacher. I gave away to my students all day long information. I never ran out of informtion and knew my subject bette at the end of the day. No physical susbtance acts like that. At the end of the day, I had the same amount of information as I had at the start of the day. By contrast, if I had a hundred dollaars at the beginning of the day and gave a dollar to a hunred students how much money (a physical item) would I have left? Informaton can not be created or destroyed. God is information!



 

[Enoch 2021 412]

Enoch how can an analogy be a strawman?

 

 

Well,  Straw Man (Fallacy)--- when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.  

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

 

Your's was distorted exaggerated and a misrepresentation. Voila

 

 

I think exodus mentions days and I suppose the best context is literal, however, when it says God, "made" in six days I wonder if that means "made", as in, "made" my already existent bed, or "created".

 

 

You wonder, is the basis of your argument?

 

#1.  Well Day 1 is here...

 

(Genesis 1:1-5) "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  {2} And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.  {3} And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.  {4} And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.  {5} And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."

 

According to the above passage, Was the Earth there before Day 1??

 

Here's Day 6....

 

(Genesis 1:29-31) "And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.  {30} And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.  {31} And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

 

Then we have...

 

(Exodus 20:10-11) "But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:  {11} For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

 

You still Wondering?

 

Your only recourse @ this point is to float that Fairytale "GAP Theory"...?  Please, Make My Day!!  

 

 

It seems to me the term, "created" or, "made" could be equivocal. 

 

 

Really??  In what way....?

 

If God made a primordial universe and earth as it indicates when it says the earth was "formless and void", then He could still have "made" the heavens and earth in six days.

 

 

What on Earth is this?

 

 

For example, I have made and sold many hundreds of toys, mostly toy wooden/clay wands, I first cut the wood then I prepare the clay. That wood and clay sometimes can sit there for three hours, then I make a toy and might say, "I made this toy in two hours."

 

 

Are you saying there's a "Gap" of Time between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2 ?  Please say yes!!

 

 

You see I just think differently now Enoch.

 

 

Yes well, it appears your initial argument was a Trainwreck.... then when I EXPOSED it for what it really was, you had no other recourse than to attempt to 'Muddy The Waters' with Nonsensical "Interpretations" and this is what "I Think" codswallop.

 

God says what HE means and means what HE says.

 

 I just don't mind what age the universe is.

 

 

I don't either as long as you don't compromise the Doctrine of Salvation "Kinsmen Redeemer" with any Fairytale "Long Age" Baggage that it's Ball and Chained to.

 

 

Like mike said earlier, the universe can be any age God wants it to be. 

 

 

Straw Man Fallacy.  Of course, God can do anything HE wants...but WHAT DID HE SAY HE DID, is the actual Point!

 

You'd both have a have a Point... Absent Scripture.

 

 

I am open to the gap

 

 

Let me close it for ya ( http://www.oldtestamentstudies.org/my-papers/other-papers/recent-creationism/what-about-the-gap-theory/ )...

 

It won't let me post it due to "too many images".  Of course, it doesn't have any images 

 

 

regards

[Enoch 2021 412]

Enoch said

 

A thing is material. You are not saying you and your body are one are you? 

 

 

Nope.  Can you answer my actual responses @ some point?  

 

That way, you'll be somewhat dissuaded from attempting to float, by innuendo...Potential Straw Man Fallacies. 

 

 

God is life. 

 

Why would he need to create life when he "is" life and can pass it on? 

 

 

Ya see, what you're doing is...attempting to play semantic games with the term "LIFE" of GOD with Biological " LIFE " THEN... Equivocating (Fallacy).

 

GOD needed to CREATE " Biological LIFE " even though HE contains LIFE....because the two "LIFE'S" are different.

 

Voila.

 

 

regards

[Mike Summers 454]

Enoch

Nope. Can you answer my actual responses @ some point?

I thought I had!
Bilogical life=spirit animating matter. To our credit we undestand that life is the same in all creaturees God created.
Matter of itself can do nothing.
It's God's spirit that makes things alive! Matter plus God's sprit =bilogical life!
 

[mike the wiz 1,210]

Mike, Enoch our good friend only seems to have one mode of communication; arguing. I don't mean that in a derogatory way because I know he means well.

 

Enoch, I am not arguing anything in this thread but by saying the bible is literally six days of creation and six thousand years, obviously if I have not real position on that issue of age, then you kind of force me into defending a possible longer age. For example, had Piasan or Hugh Ross came on here and argued the days were a day-age scenario, I probably would now be arguing against them, the young-earth position.

 

So really I am not AGAINST your position and I am not AGAINST their position, I just simply don't have a position because the bible doesn't give me enough to go on. Arguing vociferously with me won't change how my mind perceives things differently to yours. it strikes me that there is at least the possibility that Genesis does not refer to day one except when God says He called the light day and the darkness, night. Notice before He called them that, the earth was already in existence. Obviously there were no days when the earth was around, as when He separated the light from the darkness, only THEN did He say, "the evening and the morning" were the first day, but what about BEFORE He separated the light and darkness? If you read BEFORE that, there was an earth and universe.

 

HOWEVER, YECs could be right, and have a better interpretation, because I am not against a possible YEC scenario! I am just expounding some possibilities, and every time I open my mouth I get it slammed shut by Seargent Trunchbull's horns.

[keysi 32]

Just realised a funny little thing but sadly I was too late to get in in the appropriate thread- anyone else notice how ironic Enoch's avatar is?

 

Sorry Bonedigger and other mods, couldn't resist. I'm shutting up now.

[gilbo12345 860]

Mike, Enoch our good friend only seems to have one mode of communication; arguing. I don't mean that in a derogatory way because I know he means well.

 

As someone who has 1 and a half modes of communication, "arguing" and "kinda arguing"

 

I feel that this may be due to becoming somewhat jaded over the years discussing these issues. That is my excuse anyway

 

And I don't mean any disrespect to anyone, just attempting to provide a possible cause.

[mike the wiz 1,210]

Gilbo, we all think differently don't we? Some people tend to think in a very black and white sort of way, with no shades of grey in between. I don't attach any blame, it's just that if a person does tend to not entertain any grey areas, then they can take a very dichotomous stance. "you're either with me or against me!" That sort of thing. or, "it's that simple, it's either X or not X"

 

So I really don't blame Enoch. Common-sense thinking CAN be right, and if the earth is young, brilliant! Why would I be against that? I'm just not sure but we all agree that the earth was populated thousands of years ago. Perhaps Enoch is sure, and my dithering, blithering, codswallop arguments annoy him. Perhaps he has the luxury of being sure about things, but I have always been indecisive.

[cheeseburger 24]

Cheeseburger, it's more the issue of, "who took over when Moses died". If Moses wrote the law books then died, then someone continued writing it, I am okay with that being a possibility. Obviously it is impossible to know who wrote it but we get a story that is fluent.

Of course, God could have told Moses what was going to happen after he died. This would be comparable to God telling Adam what happened prior to his creation or Jesus telling the gospel-writers about his private conversations with the devil and Nicodemus.

[Dredge 15]

 

The "6,000" year figure comes from Bishop Usher who analyzed the genealogies.

Bishop Usher isn't the only one. Orthodox Jews use the date 5887 (instead of 2017). The Catholic Church comes up with a similar amount of time since the crearion of Adam.

[Dredge 15]

If we are to take the Bible literally and use scripture to interpret scripture, then we have Exodus 20:11, "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth".

 

This suggests that the entire creation period lasted one week, not thousands or more.

You have misquoted Exodus 20:11. It says "for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them". I don't believe this is referring to the planet earth, but to the earth's atmospehere, land and sea (which are called "heaven ... earth ... seas" respectively in Gen 1). The crucial point in this verse is the inclusion of "the sea" - since the sea is part of planet earth, there would be no point mentioning it if the verse was referring to the planet earth. That would amount to a tautology.

 

In other words, imo Exodus 20:11 is referring to the second creation (the six days) that came after Gen 1:1, in which the planet earth and the stars were created.

[Dredge 15]

Well Day 1 is here...

 

(Genesis 1:1-5) "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. {2} And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. {3} And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. {4} And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. {5} And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

 

According to the above passage, Was the Earth there before Day 1??"

Yes, I believe it was, because I believe it can be demonstrated that your definition of the first "day" is wrong, as it is amounts to a period of time longer than one day.

 

I believe Day 1 starts with "Let there be light" in verse 3, not with the darkness of verse 1. Day 1 extends from "and there was light" to "and there was morning" in verse 5. God defines "one day" (v.5) as the period of light-evening-light ... ie, the first "light" to the light of the first "morning".

 

Or look at it this way, the definition of "one day" ends with the light of "morning" (v. 5). Therefore the beginning of "one day" must also be light (v.5). The beginning of one day cannot be the darkness before the first light, as that would be more than one day.

 

Imagine for argument's sake that the dawn of first "morning" (v.5) is 6am - go back one day (24 hours) and you have the first dawn at 6am. It cannot be the darkness before the dawn of 6am, as that would be longer than 24 hours - ie, longer than one day.

 

So I think your claim is that "one day" is from darkness-light-darkness-light is erroneous as it too long and so doesn't fit the definition of one day (ie, light-evening-light).

 

---------------------------------------------

 

The only place the creation of the planet earth is mentioned (chronologically) is in Gen 1:1, which occurs before the light of the first day (v.3). Therefore "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" refers to a time before the "six days" of creation.

(Exodus 20:10-11) "But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: {11} For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

I don't believe this verse includes the planet earth (as in Genesis 1:1). The "heaven and earth, the sea" is referring to the earth's atmosphere, land and oceans respectively (see Gen 1:8, 10). That is to say, Exodus 20:11 is referring to what happened in the six days after the creation of planet earth in v.1. (See my post to Goku, #40).

 

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After all that, I've noticed that Enoch has been banned! Oh well, I'll submit this post anyways; maybe it will interest someone else.