Thera volcano tsunami explains Exodus crossing?

[indydave 562]

On the new Discovery Channel series Mysteries of the Deep, one of their stories involved the idea that the crossing of the Red Sea may have been made possible by the explosion of an island volcano named Thera. At first they determined that that event was 100 years too early to match the Exodus, but then they looked at the dendrochronology and found that tree rings from different parts of the world showed that the growth was stunted in a period of 4 years beginning at the exact time that the Exodus would have been taking place. It also makes the point that carbon dating of an olive branch that was in the volcanic ash was off by 100 years, so that method must have been flawed. At first that carbon date indicated to them that the volcano could not have any effect on the Exodus crossing, but then they determined that for some reason that carbon date had to be wrong.

One side of me says that I should reject this as just one more example of the scientific world trying to explain away miracles in the Bible. But why should I object to the idea that God may have exploded a volcano in the process of allowing the water in the Red Sea to be parted? I think it is certainly possible that God can use natural events in the accomplishment of his purposes, much like we would say regarding the Flood of Noah. The way they described it, they would have experienced, like other tsunamis, that the water would first recede away and then later it would come back into its original position with great force. If you have a chance to take a look at the program, maybe you would like to comment. Should such a natural explanation pose a problem, or does it give support to the Bible account? According to the Bible, this was caused by strong winds blowing, however it's very possible that winds were extreme as a result of the volcanic eruption and tsunami. IF it was indeed caused by this volcano, the question would be how in the world would Moses have KNOWN this would take place? Wouldn't that be a pretty strong indication of a MIRACULOUS event, just by the fact that there was foreknowledge of this happening so that it would allow them to escape? Could this be STRONG evidence that an atheist should seriously consider?

[KillurBluff 214]

I do find it an 'Oddity' when even some Christians would say or suggest that God would NOT use His Own Creation to make or process/progress a miracle..

 

 

[mike the wiz 1,210]

12 hours ago, indydave said:

IF it was indeed caused by this volcano, the question would be how in the world would Moses have KNOWN this would take place? Wouldn't that be a pretty strong indication of a MIRACULOUS event, just by the fact that there was foreknowledge of this happening so that it would allow them to escape? Could this be STRONG evidence that an atheist should seriously consider?

That's a good point Dave but I think the real problem stems from the fact that with all such attempts to explain miracles like the Exodus what the documentary makers are trying to do is essentially explain it all naturally from the viewpoint and worldview of people that believe in an evolutionary history and believe the Lord God, Yahweh, is just another mythical being. 

I don't know if it was the same volcano but another type of explanation I once heard on a discovery channel documentary was that a volcano caused a pillar of light by night and a pillar of smoke by day. It's sort of just a way of saying, "well these Hebrews ATTRIBUTED something natural to God."

In regards to foreknowledge from my perspective I have no problem believing that can happen because of my own personal experience of it. 

I'd like to try and explain that a bit, because it takes some explaining. Throughout my walk with God as a Christian I have not deliberately but by happenstance "collected" certain scriptures that have meaning to me personally. I have then highlighted them. Most of the special verses are highlighted because basically a lot of them are the only one answer to certain questions I have. 

To show what I mean imagine if God promised something to you but you were not sure about it. If I have a doubt about that promise, the scripture which answers that question of doubt that may arise given I don't always have perfect faith would be this verse for me; "For when God made a promise to Abraham he swore by Himself because there was nobody higher"....and it a bit later goes on to say, "it is impossible for God to lie"........it also says, "so after Abraham has patiently endured He received the promise".

Can you see what I am saying? If I am wondering at a time of doubt about something God has promised me, that scripture is one scripture that would, "answer" my concerns very well. Can you see what I mean?

The reason I explain that is because I have built up these specific "answers" to some very specific questions. I did not do this on purpose, I just came across those verses when I had those concerns on my mind so I highlighted them in red. 

There is one scripture which is of the most importance to me and it's basically the only scripture in the bible which is an answer to a question I have. One morning about two years back now I woke up very depressed because of the issue that pertains to that scripture. Now I know where that scripture is in my bible, and I prayed for God to, "please let the bible open to that scripture", because I was very, very down because of that issue.

So I flicked through my bible but I deliberately avoided going near that place in the bible where I know the scripture verse resides. Which is kind of amusing I know because how can I open to that verse if I don't go near it? But the reason I avoided that area in the bible where that scripture is is because I didn't want to MANIPULATE and answer to prayer then lie to myself and tell myself God answered. 

So I remember I was lying down in my bed and I just sighed, closed the bible and put it on the floor next to my bed. About thirty seconds later the feeling came over me that just sort of said to me, "open your bible". I leaned over but because my eyes can't see around corners and I could only see the top of the bible, I randomly opened the bible with my hand while it was still on the floor, and it was the scripture I had prayed to receive.

As you might imagine, the balm of healing comfort for my depression was instantaneous for I was overjoyed.

Now you may think, "you got lucky". I would also agree with that possibility but similar instances have occurred so many times now since the summer of hell 2013, that there is absolutely no possibility of it being natural chance.

Not to blow my own trumpet but I have proven this to myself now with many experiments beyond chance, I even tried to replicate the results as atheists requested of me by praying to the god of canned tomatoes and seeing if it would happen. It quite simply never happened, and a lot of the scriptures I have marked in red have dead page memories meaning I tend to only open to those scriptures every six months or so and usually when I have prayed for God to answer me in this way by opening the bible.

One thing I also note is that every time this has happened I have not been conscious of what my hand was doing. Personally what I think happens is that when I am not conscious of what my hand is doing, God finds the page of scripture by using my natural hand. This seems impossible but when you think about it God knows where every molecule resides.

Conclusion: I absolutely believe God can use natural means, in a sense we have been taught "nature" is synonymous with materialism and supernature with theism but the bible states explicitly that God made the natural world, and that the design in life is therefore directly due to His handiwork. 

[indydave 562]

I'd like to ask atheists...IF it was CERTAIN to you that Thera happened in the EXACT YEAR as the Exodus AND you could be convinced that a tsunami from that volcano could indeed cause the Red Sea to dry up for a few hours before refilling, would this be strong evidence for the existence of God and for the Bible being a reliable source of Truth?

[indydave 562]

Mike, would you agree that Moses had miraculous ability and God spoke to him (re timing of the Exodus) in a way He does not speak to you?

(I personally do not believe that there are miracles taking place today of the sort that you can read about in the Bible. I'm not sure the term miracle should be applied to ANY event today. God does answer prayer so some would say that is a miracle and if that is all we are talking about, I could agree that that sort of act of God does take place today.)

[piasan 541]

17 hours ago, indydave said:

On the new Discovery Channel series Mysteries of the Deep, one of their stories involved the idea that the crossing of the Red Sea may have been made possible by the explosion of an island volcano named Thera.

I had read that some of the miracles associated with the Exodus could have been from an eruption of Santorini.   I looked it up ..... Santorini is the modern name for Thera.  It is also thought that this island may have been Atlantis.

17 hours ago, indydave said:

At first they determined that that event was 100 years too early to match the Exodus, but then they looked at the dendrochronology and found that tree rings from different parts of the world showed that the growth was stunted in a period of 4 years beginning at the exact time that the Exodus would have been taking place. It also makes the point that carbon dating of an olive branch that was in the volcanic ash was off by 100 years, so that method must have been flawed. At first that carbon date indicated to them that the volcano could not have any effect on the Exodus crossing, but then they determined that for some reason that carbon date had to be wrong.

I'm not too sure we even know the date of the Exodus within 100 years.  Nor do we have an exact date for the eruption of Thera.   The ranges I've seen for each do overlap so there is a real possibility the events could be in the same timeframe.

17 hours ago, indydave said:

One side of me says that I should reject this as just one more example of the scientific world trying to explain away miracles in the Bible.

Isn't the very purpose of science the discovery of natural explanations?  Would you like a list of things once thought of as acts of God that have been explained by science?   Should the Bible to be exempt from testing?

18 hours ago, indydave said:

But why should I object to the idea that God may have exploded a volcano in the process of allowing the water in the Red Sea to be parted? I think it is certainly possible that God can use natural events in the accomplishment of his purposes, much like we would say regarding the Flood of Noah.

Or any number of other things ......

19 hours ago, indydave said:

 The way they described it, they would have experienced, like other tsunamis, that the water would first recede away and then later it would come back into its original position with great force.

But tsunami are over in minutes.  Besides, Thera is on the Mediterranean side of what is now the Suez ... wasn't the crossing closer to the southern end of where the Suez is now?

19 hours ago, indydave said:

Should such a natural explanation pose a problem, or does it give support to the Bible account?

I would say it gives support to the Bible as history.

19 hours ago, indydave said:

According to the Bible, this was caused by strong winds blowing, however it's very possible that winds were extreme as a result of the volcanic eruption and tsunami.

Thera is about 500 miles from the coastline of Egypt.  It's unlikely significant winds would reach anywhere near that far.    And again, the wind wouldn't last long enough for thousands of people to cross.

I have read that there is a place where a sustained wind can create a land bridge. 

20 hours ago, indydave said:

 IF it was indeed caused by this volcano, the question would be how in the world would Moses have KNOWN this would take place?

In the military, there is a thing called "need to know."  Moses was getting his instructions from God.  All Moses needed to know was where to be and when to be there.  He didn't need to know a volcano would explode hundreds of miles away.  IOW, God need not share all of his plans with Moses.

 

[piasan 541]

8 hours ago, mike the wiz said:

I don't know if it was the same volcano but another type of explanation I once heard on a discovery channel documentary was that a volcano caused a pillar of light by night and a pillar of smoke by day. It's sort of just a way of saying, "well these Hebrews ATTRIBUTED something natural to God."

That would be a different volcano.  There are scholars who believe Mount Sinai was a volcano.

[indydave 562]

14 minutes ago, piasan said:

Isn't the very purpose of science the discovery of natural explanations?  Would you like a list of things once thought of as acts of God that have been explained by science?   Should the Bible to be exempt from testing?

So go ahead and just SAY it, Pi. You believe ALL "miraculous" events are really just myths. EXCEPT the resurrection, because you can hardly deny THAT and remain a Christian.

17 minutes ago, piasan said:

But tsunami are over in minutes.  Besides, Thera is on the Mediterranean side of what is now the Suez ... wasn't the crossing closer to the southern end of where the Suez is now

The program first gave reasoning why it was nearer to the northern end. Not sure why some say it is more southern.

20 minutes ago, piasan said:

All Moses needed to know was where to be and when to be there.  He didn't need to know a volcano would explode hundreds of miles away.  IOW, God need not share all of his plans with Moses.

I agree. My point is that if God did not give any instructions to Moses because God does not exist, then we would have to say it was pure coincidence that Moses got the people of Israel to leave just in time for the unknown accident of a huge volcano that could cause the waters to recede naturally. I am saying that is not very likely and if this whole Thera idea has any validity, at least it indicates that Moses had to be told ahead of time that the volcano was about to explode...OR that God CAUSED it...and that supports the idea of God.

[mike the wiz 1,210]

8 hours ago, indydave said:

Mike, would you agree that Moses had miraculous ability and God spoke to him (re timing of the Exodus) in a way He does not speak to you?

(I personally do not believe that there are miracles taking place today of the sort that you can read about in the Bible. I'm not sure the term miracle should be applied to ANY event today. God does answer prayer so some would say that is a miracle and if that is all we are talking about, I could agree that that sort of act of God does take place today.)

I guess that theological position is up to you. All I can really do is testify to what really happened to me and for me since I define a miracle as "an act of God" I did experience the miraculous in that God acted on my behalf. 

I guess I would just put it differently, I would say Moses had an anointing upon him for his life to fit the race he was designed to run and I have an anointing on my life to fit the race I have to run. 

In terms of post-biblical activity in terms of the dramatic miracles we saw in the bible, I think the acts of God are still available for those who seek them but there does seem to be a change since the gospel occurred in HOW God operates in the earth since it is the, "church age" so to speak. There is this sense that because the cross is complete, God has put in His main chess move. Is this just our psychology because we never see black swans? I don't know. All I will say is that I was a Christian for about fourteen years before I saw God's hand in that particular way that I did, and I never would have thought something like that could happen in this world, until it happened to me.

I believe God answered me in that way because of the dreadful weight of what has occurred to me, particularly because twice I believe I have come closer to death in the depths of that depression and affliction God has chosen to put upon me, and quite frankly had God not answered in those miraculous ways I honestly don't think I could have coped with the burden He has placed upon me.

I rest from EFF now, so sorry if I get back in a week or so, I am reducing participation as I announced a week or so back.

I believe this "glory cloud" could be true, this could have been God's presence because of their faith at that church where they preach miracles;

And I think it's good to listen to Bill Johnson's words, I don't believe they would have faked this;

 

[indydave 562]

On 6/14/2020 at 9:16 PM, piasan said:

I would say it gives support to the Bible as history

Why so? I mean if it ONLY supports it as history then you have to believe that Moses had no idea about it (maybe he didn't) and that it just happened naturally with God having no part in it.

If God DID cause it as the process by which it would allow them to escape safely, then it demonstrates to an atheist that God DOES exist and the Bible DOES give us TRUTH about miraculous events. The only question is whether the timing is close enough. (And if winds might be part of the process.) If it were known down to a precise YEAR would that be precise enough? How about DECADE? Hopefully if someone has an open heart to the possibility of supernatural events which coordinate with the Bible accounts, then one would not necessarily have to get it to a very precise timing.

Of course I am not saying that the truthfulness of the Bible account DEPENDS on this Thera theory being correct, because I have believed the account long before learning about this just in the past week. For me it is (potentially) strong confirmatory evidence at this point, and I am hopeful that it might help tip the scales for someone else who may be searching and is open to the Bible being the true word of God.

[piasan 541]

On 6/14/2020 at 8:16 PM, piasan said:

Isn't the very purpose of science the discovery of natural explanations?  Would you like a list of things once thought of as acts of God that have been explained by science?   Should the Bible to be exempt from testing?

On 6/14/2020 at 8:39 PM, indydave said:

So go ahead and just SAY it, Pi. You believe ALL "miraculous" events are really just myths. EXCEPT the resurrection, because you can hardly deny THAT and remain a Christian.

 

So go ahead and just SAY it, Dave.  You believe the Bible is EXEMPT from testing.

On 6/14/2020 at 8:16 PM, piasan said:

....   tsunami are over in minutes.  Besides, Thera is on the Mediterranean side of what is now the Suez ... wasn't the crossing closer to the southern end of where the Suez is now?

On 6/14/2020 at 8:39 PM, indydave said:

The program first gave reasoning why it was nearer to the northern end. Not sure why some say it is more southern.

 

Well, that discovery of chariot wheels you talk about so much was at the southern end.  

IIRC, the southern route is proposed because of references to the "Red Sea."   Some think that may be a mis-translation of "Reed Sea."   But my understanding is that the crossing is still thought to have been 100 miles or more from the Mediterranean coastline.

 

On 6/14/2020 at 8:39 PM, indydave said:

My point is that if God did not give any instructions to Moses because God does not exist, then we would have to say it was pure coincidence that Moses got the people of Israel to leave just in time for the unknown accident of a huge volcano that could cause the waters to recede naturally. I am saying that is not very likely and if this whole Thera idea has any validity, at least it indicates that Moses had to be told ahead of time that the volcano was about to explode...OR that God CAUSED it...and that supports the idea of God.

Again, the biggest single problem I see with a tsunami explanation is that tsunami last only a few minutes.

Moses needed enough time to get how many thousands of people across?   How far was it?  They probably couldn't have moved more than 3 or 4 miles an hour as a group.